The Ballad of the Green Beret | Hacker News Reader

The Ballad of the Green Beret

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119 pointssmacktoward43 comments

My dad was in the Army Special Forces during Vietnam. He says "they" didn't like the term Green Berets and I don't remember why, it might have something to do with the song (which he also claims was not well liked) or the movie.

I think he has a conflicted view of his time, he did not stay in the service afterwards and to this day I think he both regrets his participation in the war and is proud of it at the same time.

I think war, and by extension the military allows people (mostly young men historically) to push themselves and put themselves in danger, forming some of the most memorable moments of their lives. The problem is this often goes with creating some of the most traumatic moments of their lives, and they are forever stuck with the juxtaposition of those memories.

I've personally felt a longing for the former but not the latter and I wish there were more opportunities to gain those kinds of experiences and the camaraderie without having to do things you are morally opposed to. I've found myself looking into disaster relief work and things like that at times as an alternative but that might not be a realistic option at this point in my life.

"...he both regrets his participation in the war and is proud of it at the same time..."

I used to hang out frequently with a Viet Nam vet (close-support artillery, not Special Forces, so a different kind of thing of course), and he'd drink heavily and sometimes his war experiences would come out - just anecdotes, nothing horrible. It was just as you describe. I don't think he even really wanted to talk about that stuff, but it left such a strong impression that he was compelled to.

He says a lot of the guys at the VA that he talks to say similar stuff, like no matter what bad things came out of it it was the most exciting time of their lives and in a lot of cases they wouldn't change it, even if they have regrets.

Some people get the positive side of that experience in the Peace Corps. Much of their work in construction and education is like Army Special Forces without guns.

Peace Corps has a higher academic barrier of entry, requiring a four-year degree or certain specific skills.

Much easier to enlist in the armed services, if you're reasonably fit.

I've considered that as well, I feel like my choice of education/career (cs/developer) could end up shoehorning me into some kind of infrastructure/IT/tech related roles but at the same time, do what you are good at? I should take another look at them though, thanks for the suggestion.

> I wish there were more opportunities to gain those kinds of experiences and the camaraderie without having to do things you are morally opposed to.

I recently joined my local Search and Rescue team. The opportunity popped up at just the right time for me and combines many things that I'm interested in while being of service to my community. The application process was fairly rigorous (under 10% acceptance rate) we then went through intensive training in a wide range of skills before being able to respond to calls. The team has a lot of cool toys, trains to high levels to maintain their certifications, has types of access to areas of the county that the public doesn't, is on call 24/7, and directly deals with the life and safety of individuals and the community at large.

Depending on where you live, your local team might be something for you to look in to.

Many, many communities still rely, at least in part, on volunteer firefighters. I know a number of former military guys that love it--provides that the risk/rush and camaraderie you're looking for. And it ain't a cakewalk.

https://www.volunteerfd.org/become-a-volunteer-firefighter/

Thats a good point, I was thinking about that and first responder. Where I grew up most people are actually served by volunteer fire departments (extremely rural, only the towns have full fire departments and they are low population). Any time there was any kind of fire or medical emergency volunteer firefighters and first responders were always there super fast even if regular emergency services were ~30 minutes away.

My dad was actually a EMS/Paramedic for 20+ years and I think he feels similar about that to his military service. The long periods of boredom (low population rural area) followed by intense life and death situations mimics deployment/combat experience and if you have psychological issues related to wartime experience it can exacerbate it. At the same time, saving lives and helping people are extremely fond memories but when I was growing up I think the job was harder on him than he remembers these days.

I've been thinking more about this lately with the hurricanes, wildfires, earthquakes etc that have been happening. I've been taking CPR/First Aid courses on my own just because I want to but I've been feeling like its not quite scratching the itch since its mostly preventative skills (ie, I hope I don't need it but if I do I have it).

I'll look into it for my area, may I ask if you are doing this professionally or are you part of a volunteer S&R team?

First Aid/CPR are definitely good skills to have! On the medical side, EMT might be the next level certification for you to get. (Here it's one semester at a community college with night/weekend options also available.)

The team I'm on, like most SAR teams, is all volunteer. Except for specialized teams like the one in Yosemite, professional SAR teams are generally under military, Coast Guard, or fire departments.

The big national accreditation organizations are NASAR and MRA.

http://www.nasar.org/ http://mra.org/

As another SAR guy, I'll second this. It's challenging, and not just physically. The cool toys and technical training you mentioned require a degree of analysis and problem solving, as well as getting into the nitty gritty details that many programmers love. There is also a lot of need of technical software types, as GIS becomes ever more prevalent and if you like the challenge of maintaining a network in an office building, try taking it to eleven by doing it in the out of doors.

Hemingway summarized it best, "There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter."

It's hard not to bond over what might be the most difficult task you accomplish with a group of like minded individuals, but it's also impossible to not grapple with the morality of your situation.

Get into climbing, specifically traditional climbing and alpinism. You get everything: danger, fear, awe, overwhelming sensory experiences, deep camaderie and a feeling that you've participated in something both meaningful and meaningless. Trust me, you won't regret it.

While obviously not a substitute for actual military training or experience, I strongly recommend looking into a company called GORUCK [0] and their corresponding events.

GORUCK events range in duration and distance (4-5 hours / 7-10 miles for Light, 10-12 hours / 15-20 miles for Tough, 24+ hours / 40+ miles for Heavy).

> Based on Special Forces training, your class is led from start to finish by a Special Forces Cadre. His job is to test your limits, push you beyond them, and build your class into a team. There are no cash prizes at the finish. All you earn is a 2x3 inch patch and the respect of everyone to your left and right.

I've done 2 GORUCK events (1 Light, 1 Tough). They rank among the most challenging physical and mental experiences in my life. I enjoy testing my limits as well as the comradery of collective suffering amongst the rest of the team as you work together towards a common objective or goal. It has been a great way to meet new friends; I'm planning my 2018 event calendar now.

[0] https://www.goruck.com/the-challenge/

I'll share for others. My dad served in similar role. They consider themselves silent professionals, and he didn't say much about it. He sent me a link today that one of that crew just got Medal of Honor, I think my dad was proud to see that. I asked him 10 years ago to record his history on video. It took him two years, we never discussed, I just got some DVDs in the mail one day. He said explaining history was hard for him to do, and discussed atheism in the foxhole. He discussed everyone's routines before you drop in - rechecking ammo, puking, praying, napping, nerves. In the end of second DVD he said the most important thing is to keep your sense of humor and be happy which surprised me, I expected grit. He is still really upset about losing one friend overseas. He went to the Wall 15 years ago and broke down and people surrounded him and helped him (apparently happens a lot). I think he graphite-copied his buddy's name. He is normal with stable finances and married 50ish years, now works with abused kids in retirement. Of that military group, most went on to normal lives and you wouldn't be able to pick out of a lineup. One owns a tire shop, one worked in tech, one refuses all contact with military folks and a notoriously shady one became an attorney. They all love the outdoors and meet at a convention once a year.

The song lyrics hit home. My father was a green beret, and now I have a brother who is a combat controller and another brother who is 101st airborne and training to become a ranger. I also started down that path but I have diminished lung capacity due to a bout with tuberculosis, so I never could join.

There's a million things wrong with the lifestyle. Even if you don't die, you still do in a sociocultural sense. Divorce rates are near 100%. Nearly all of your job is classified or top secret, so you can't discuss it with anybody. Even your psychiatrists have to have top secret clearance just to talk to you. It's nearly impossible to have any commitments (social, financial, educational, etc.), because you can be pulled away at any moment, and you can't even tell people when you expect to return. Bankruptcy is extremely common, and nobody has good credit. It's nearly impossible to leave and do any other occupation successfully.

And yet, even though he left the green berets to become a mostly unsuccessful but still boring CPA, and even though I basically have no relationship with him anymore, I still have this undeniable urge to be a part of it. I read the books, seek out the stories, devour any news of operations, etc. And while my dad paid lip service to how bad it was, he's secretly proud of his two special operations sons and he clings on to their lives, trying to relive his own.

It takes a warrior breed willing to make the sacrifice. I doubt a single one isn't aware of the implications of joining

edit: Thank you for sharing this, btw.

It is really interesting. Military culture, especially elite special forces, breeds an extremely fascinating brand of human. Tough, practical in a basic sense, experience of human condition at a visceral level, extreme stress, indoctrination to violence and causing death, and a required level of training that you can interpret as supreme confidence.

The lessons you can learn from these extremes are imminently applicable to day to day life if you read between the lines. I completely get the desire to want to be a part of a special forces team. The sense of belonging, elite physical conditioning and knowledge that you are actually the best at something without the usual asterisk we all place on ourselves and skills.

There are tons of negatives as you have mentioned. Divorce rates are extremely high as you mentioned. What makes you good at being an elite soldier makes you really bad at being a companion to other humans that aren't also an elite special forces soldier serving along side you.

We ask a lot of these folks, mostly men. Interestingly most special forces men self select and are what I consider "fully developed" (age 25+). They have usually been in the military since they were adults. Young kids just joining the army often lack the life skills to cope with things. I suspect if you could not join the military until you were 25 there would be a lot less PTSD as 25 year olds have time to develop life coping skills in more humane environment. So special forces men (at least for us forces) really WANT to be there and have had time to get out. Regardless of the politics behind it these guys mostly stay in because they believe in their country and their brothers in arms. They often vehemently disagree with the politics of many situations.

No apology here for the jingoism and all the negative things that come with a militaristic culture, but it is fascinating to study these people and the extremes of training and conditioning they endure and what that can ultimately teach you about life. Heavy reading between the lines required, but the hacker crowd often dismisses these guys far too quickly because of all the negatives and militarism surrounding these guys. This culture exists, isn't going anywhere, and can teach a lot.

Anyway, I guess this was all to say, I share your dual fascination/repulsion with this culture. It is just interesting, and as hackers we should always learn about interesting stuff, even if we disagree with it.

I agree with much of what you say, but I do take issue with the idea that "what makes you good at being an elite soldier makes you really bad at being a companion to other humans that aren't also an elite special forces soldier." Certainly the time required to develop and maintain elite fighting skills takes away from the time one could spend on personal and familial relationships, but there's nothing intrinsic to the makeup of an elite soldier that detracts from one's ability to relate to other people. I have a family member who is retired from a special forces unit with all that entails (lots of deployments, medals, injuries, lost comrades, etc.) who is a good husband and father, patient, calm, resourceful and helpful, and generally the kind of guy you'd like to have as a neighbor. I think he had some advantages that many special ops guys don't always have such as very strong family ties throughout his deployments and not getting married until after his deployments were over, but he's certainly not the only one from his unit to do well in retirement.

I've been friends two former Navy UDT team members (precursor to the SEALs), both of whom were Korean war vets, and one former SEAL. One was an old girlfriend's dad and the kind of person you describe--unassuming, very decent family guy who I liked a lot. I had no idea he'd even been in the military, much less done insane things deep in North Korean territory, until I asked his daughter how he'd come to start a diving services company.

The other former UDT vet was my high school writing teacher, a sort of Yoda figure. He covered the clock in his classroom with a picture of the Buddha, so you got a little jolt of patience training every time you snuck a glance at the clock. Whatever small writing talent I have started with him.

Third was a friend's cousin who who'd left the service in his mid-thirties. For a while we were drinking buddies. We road bikes together for a while too, but that didn't last long--he was in such phenomenally better shape than me, despite training half as much, it was a mismatch. We were a mismatch in general--he was a bro's bro and I was like his token hippie friend. But we had fun boozing around for a while, and he was in no way damaged goods.

Speaking of booze, one amazing thing about Sadler was his ability to write so many potboilers while drinking so hard. I don't drink anymore, in large part because my productivity just went to shit when I was drunk all the time. Maybe it's more feasible to write purple prose than code when you're loaded.

It depends.

The way I treat my family is different because they're my family.

I don't usually enjoy interactions with new people because we differ so greatly in our priorities, focus, and sensitivity to violence.

If you lived on Mars for 10 years you probably wouldn't have much in common with someone who was born and raised on Earth. Some Martian's would fair better than others of course. New friendships might be more a factor of their gregariousness or how much they miss Mars though.

I guess I should have clarified when they are in active duty. Back in civilian world / outside of that environment, yeah sure, can be pretty normal folks.

I don't go around advocating violence, but neither do I shower it with the contempt that's been fashionable ever since the late 60s when showing up at a Vietnam protest became a viable way of getting laid. (There was even a poster - "Girls say yes to boys who say no!" meaning who dodge the draft. I digress.) I basically just try to understand violence and war as something that's been part of the human condition since day 1. So I flinched a little at the way this writer seems to write off Sadler and his struggles in such a casual and condescending way. And also at his unnecessary use of qua. That is the sine qua non of sanctius quam tu.

Yeah. It is interesting though. I think the classic PBS documentary "anyone's son will do" is great. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DShDaJXK5qo I think war in the industrialized world is almost purely political. Wars in the modern day are arranged by old men and politicians and fought by young men. I don't blame the young men, but I think it goes back to some aspects of human biology and how young men see themselves and are manipulated through patriotism and other political forces to volunteer (or be conscripted) into a military to serve political ends. In a time before two tribes could communicate and apply some reason to things, force was the only way to resolve things. Force and violence is still a crude, simple, and effective path to changing human behavior so it of course is used, but if it is ever used between super powers the world is basically over. Anyhow, I digress.

So then when you're done with your military career, you find yourself on the one hand having mastered yourself and done a lot of stuff you didn't think you were capable of. And on the other hand, some of that stuff is kind of bad, especially with that modern twist you're talking about - I would call it modern disconnection. I don't think there's anything in human nature that hasn't been extracted, distilled, modified and commodified by industrial society, and that leads to a lot of disconnection. Including with war and such. In the olden days, killing someone who was about to kill your family and torch your village etc. (things you felt connected to), was probably a lot easier to reconcile with your conscience, than nowadays killing someone for some faraway, disconnected political goal. Which eventually most of them realize as they get older - those military goals and missions, set by those at the top, are to some extent, arbitrary and capricious. I dunno, I would probably drink a lot too.

Nitpicking: One can say force WAS used between superpowers (Cold War, proxy wars) and we are still here.

Old rich men will always find a way to fight each other without destroying themselves.

The recent memoir of a UK SF and Security Service operator by Tom Marcus is an interesting read

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Soldier-Spy-Tom-Marcus/dp/071818484...

As a 12-year post-9/11 veteran with 7 years at a Tier 1 SOCOM unit and currently a successful BD guy at a Top 5 SV unicorn, your post is filled with misinformation, generalities, and is frankly offensive. Many of my brothers and sisters from the SOF world have successfully transitioned to the civilian world and are crushing it. Are there dark times - yes. But we either choose to let them define us or choose to rise above and move ahead with our goals.

Your comment about bankruptcies and poor credit is not even worth responding to.

The world under SOCOM is pretty big, and I've only experienced some of it, second hand via direct family as well as family friends. I may be painting with an overly broad brush, but I'm telling it how I experienced it.

The bankruptcy and credit problem may not be as relevant anymore due to technology, but it was absolutely relevant in the time my father was active. The technology we rely on to maintain our finances (automatic payments, mail, pervasive internet and phone communications) didn't exist, and if it did, it wasn't anywhere near the combat outposts where they would be deployed to for several months to train local militias. It is really hard to pay a bill if you can't be sent a bill, call to ask about a balance, send a check via mail, or have your bank take care of it for you.

I do know at least one former Ranger who was pretty successful in a civilian job (logistics at amazon), but I've known far more that couldn't hack anything out of the military (apart from security contractors that is). Maybe my sample is small and not representative, but that's just the way I've seen it. Sorry if I offended you by the generalization, it wasn't my intent at all.

I'm laughing my ass off at the fact you have actually posted your little resumé in a comment. The guys that do stuff usually aren't the ones to float what they've done in order to be taken seriously, especially a "Tier 1" guy.

But, there are absolutely dudes no matter how high up who are not smart in how they handle their personal finances. Didn't Matt Bissonette (aka Mark Owens) write a novel about his time in DEVGRU and what took place on the UBL mission because he didn't have any money?

I clicked on this wondering "WTF is something like this on HN" and really enjoyed and learned from what I read. Thanks, submission-upvoters! A great piece of HN serendipity.

(This also made me realize I have a weird saddle-curve tropism: articles that are clearly on topics I care about I always click on, even though they often turn out to be me-too. Stuff that's mildly interesting looking I rarely click on because who has the time? But stuff that looks like it's clearly not-HN fodder I'll click on. This means I'd probably click on a seeming listicle or something with "Kardashian" in the title)

Saw the movie 20 years ago and remember enjoying it. Was better than I expected. We were “saving the world from communism”. We lost and communism didn’t take over the world.

Watching the Americans today reminds me of how we fought to save Afghanistan from the Russians. Now we’re there in our longest war.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Americans_(2013_TV_serie...

Iraq ... we saved the Iraqi’s from Saddam. Libya from Gaddafi...

Personally, I think the Green Berets should be required watching with an additional history lesson to help us better reflect on our past and future choices.

Maybe someday we’ll stop trying to save the world, and quit repeating past mistakes.

This explains (kind-of) the Simon and Garfunkel lyric, "I've been Lou Adlered, Barry Sadlered." Somehow it had never occurred to me that Barry Sadler was a famous person. I suppose I'd assumed since I didn't get the reference, they'd just tossed in a name that fit the meter.

I was hesitant to click on it due to my association of the song with the 1968 warmonger propaganda film “The Green Berets” (not John Wayne’s best work, IMO). But the story itself was not what I would have expected, so worth a read.

I'm not American and didn't know about the green berets until I heard of them in this episode from the Love+Radio Podcast :

http://loveandradio.org/2016/11/wood-fighting-with-steel/

It's an intimate interview with a Vietnam vet (the green beret). A truly beautiful piece of radio IMHO.

Thank you for sharing, I really enjoyed listening to this.

Sounds like the life story of the child from a triangle relationship between Ernest Hemingway, Hunter S. Thompson and Jack Kerouac.

And raised in Leadville, a town famous for its whorehouses at the time.

I read one of the Casca novels as a teenager and the premise really stuck with me. I remember referencing it to my wife recently and subsequently having to explain the reference.

I do read alot, and I guess it says something that I haven't searched for or read any more of the novels.

I read three or four of the Casca series as a teenager. I remember them fondly, but I'm not sure they would age well. Maybe someday I'll look for one in ebook form.

Why would the mom make her son a beret when that's what killed her husband?

The song paints a narrative of a patriot, dedicated enough to give his life for his country in the earnest belief that his actions will make life in his country better.

The exaggerated and romanticized version of the wife of a man like that is expected to support the same goal just as vigorously, through her sacrifices. Sending her son to serve when her husband already died that way would just be a continuation of her patriotic duty.

Note that this is just my interpretation of the song and its commentary on some aspects of military culture, and not my opinion of a reasonable expectation for anyone's actual behavior.

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