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A couple months ago I wanted to get rid of an old Dell printer. My uncle gave it to me for free so I thought I would just give it away for free on Craigslist. I had a total of 9 people contact me saying they were interested in it. Many people expressed skepticism and asked "Does it work?" and "Why are you giving it away for free?" Out of those 9 people that contacted me saying they were interested, 0 actually showed up to pick it up. One person even asked me if I could "deliver" it to their house as they "really wanted it" but were too sick to come pick it up. I wasted so much time dealing with these people.

After realising this wasn't working, I re-listed it for $5 and the first person who contacted me actually came and picked it up without any issues.

And the conclusion is that he should offer his labor for minimum or some other small wage, and that conclusion is false.

"And the conclusion is that he should offer his labor for minimum or some other small wage, and that conclusion is false."

no, it's not false. If someone told me they would work on my website for free, I wouldn't want to give them any serious jobs. The reason is because there is no reason for them to continue working on my project if something better comes up or they lose interest.

Actually, if you wanted continued work, you'd pay for it. You get only one free job, which should be limited in scope. If you want more work, you won't get it for free, and that's reason enough for any freelancer to keep working with you.

"Actually, if you wanted continued work, you'd pay for it. You get only one free job, which should be limited in scope. If you want more work, you won't get it for free, and that's reason enough for any freelancer to keep working with you."

If you are working on a free project for me and you get a couple of paid projects (they are paying you), my project will most likely get put on the back-burner. Even if the freelancer knows they won't get any more work from me, projects that pay the bills now are more important.

That's true but you may have gotten some free work out of it. Still not a bad deal for a limited scope task.

No, that wasn't what I meant at all. The value of this printer was very little since it was old so instead of offering it for free, I offered it for it's value.

The value of a printer is easy to understand. The value of a programmer with no portfolio is not.

Is your argument that he ought to charge nothing because it's too hard to figure out what he's worth? If you're not willing to sort out what you're worth, you're dead in the water from the outset. Don't work for free. It's almost always a disastrous set-up. Your client doesn't have skin in the game. There's an emotional investment that comes with paying for something. It's a demonstration of VALUE. No payment, no value. It's pretty close to that simple.

That is one way to look at it.

Another way would be to create a portfolio. Spend $25/mo or whatever on a web server, build some web apps and put them online for people to see.

Don't work for free.

How do you feel about working on open source projects for free?

I think working on open source projects for free is different. There usually isn't really a client.. for a lot of people who work on open source projects, the client is themselves.. so in a sense, they're not working for free.. they're putting in effort, and getting a return. That said, some of the "Don't work for free" challenges still hold.. like motivation. For many people, it helps to have money on the table, and a timeline committed to. Loads of open source projects fall down because interest and motivation wax and wane. It's helpful to have an outside force keep you moving forward, and someone else's money is a big outside force.

Working on OSS "for free" is different than working for some guy's startup without pay. At least with OSS, you can usually find a link to the commits you contributed, provide an explanation of how you solved that particular problem and why, and stick it in a portfolio.

You can't do that with proprietary software that may or may not even be running in a year from now.

Startups can open their source as well.

It makes sense for various tools which we can't guarantee will be supported if the business doesn't survive. I'm much more likely to work with and contribute to code I know will be around independent of a business.

Interesting story! But of course, I hope my experience will not be quite the same. I've tried this once, and it went well. Perhaps I was just lucky.

I feel like HN is a different crowd that might understand my motivations for doing this, given my explanation, unlike all the people who were skeptics to your free giveaway. People on Craigslist are probably right to be suspicious of someone giving away stuff there for free, and to not want to go visit them.

I think this crowd also understands the value of web development, and I hope I've made it very clear that the job should be limited in scope. I'll fill HN in on how this goes later.

This story usually involves puppies.

My favourite version was the video of the guy who goes and stands next to the "FREE HUGS" guy offering "PREMIUM HUGS: $2".

I think he makes about $32 in the first hour.

Craigslist is used by a LOT of flakes. I've also had people stand me up when charging for an item.

The best thing I've found to eliminate flakes is to include a paragraph where you ask them to only reply if they're serious, and not to waste my time if they can't come to pick it up--and also include specific instructions as to HOW to apply ("Include your name, a phone number, and when it's OK to call. Don't ask if it's gone...")

Folks who don't follow the instructions don't get the time of day from me, because they're the most likely flakes. Before I started doing this, I would have 2/3 of all people flake on me. Afterward, it was down to 1/10 or better.

BUT, in this case, I see your point: He'd be better off spending his time working for people who are willing to pay SOMETHING. Otherwise he'll get requests for products that may not ever see hosting, and that will be harder to use on a resume.

The site wasn't actually Craigslist but a similar local buy & sell that is much more reliable in my city to use than Craigslist. I've listed a number of things to sell and usually haven't had a problem. It was only in this one instance. But those are still good tips. I'll keep them in mind in the future.

Suggestion: if you don't care about compensation, join an open source project. There are dozens of projects out there with crappy project sites. Completely revamping their public facing can draw in significantly more people (I know I've skipped past a few projects because I couldn't make immediate sense out of their site). You'll have the same effect that you're looking for here, without having to wait around for someone else to give you permission.

I agree that this is a great method for your work to get a lot of exposure, to help out a lot of people, and add something cool to both your profile and resume. It has a lot more potential than doing one free job for a company. You should really look into this.

The problem with open source projects is that it's often hard to break into their communities. Some can even be surprisingly insular, and "don't need" what you see they are obviously lacking.

Of course, if you find a good one, it can be incredibly rewarding, and you can make new friends.

That's where GitHub is really great. Find a smallish but active project that you find cool, clone it, fix some bugs or add some features, and send a pull request to the project owner.

Great advice! I'll try that once I'm done with everyone who has tried to contact me (It's already quite a lot to just evaluate all the requests).

Have you read this? -

http://unixwiz.net/techtips/be-consultant.html

It's about consulting, but it applies to freelancing as well. Good discussion of rates and what people really want in terms of service and deliverables when they hire you. Very good article, there's been discussion here on HN about it too if you go to searchyc.com.

Other things to think about: Elance, Odesk, Rentacoder, or other sites that let you make some cash would be smart to look into, and look at OSS for an option to do some interesting work with smart people.

Thanks, reading it now.

Many of these sites have certain restrictions which make it difficult or impossible for me in particular to work through them and get paid, otherwise I'd use them.

> Many of these sites have certain restrictions which make it difficult or impossible

Dude, you're getting nowhere in life if you just listen when somebody says "no" - get a virtual post office box with a USA address, register for a non-resident Tax ID number, get Paypal, and you're in business. Yeah, it really is that simple.

Good luck, and banish "I can't" from your vocabulary. The right question is "How can I?"

I'm not sure if what you're saying applies to everyone? Where I live it's not possible to get an international credit card, which means I can't get paypal to work.

Do you have more information about the virtual POB? Any help/suggestions about how to get paid in a foreign country from the USA is appreciated.

> Where I live it's not possible to get an international credit card

Here we go again with the, "I can't" stuff - banish it! Really! "How can I?" Can you get someone to buy you a prepaid card when they're traveling, or when you're traveling? Do you a have friend you can hit up for a favor who lives abroad? If the answer to all of those is no, keeping asking "How can I?" Someone's done it before.

> Do you have more information about the virtual POB?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=virtual+post+office+box

Kidding aside, I used Earth Class Mail and they were good enough at what they do. I got it so I could get mail when I was international for long periods of time, but then it turned out I was able to get my mail volume pretty low regardless so I canceled. But it's a solid service.

I disagree that doing something illegal or violating the TOS is the smart way to go. This post is bold and proves that he does have the can-do spirit you're recommending.

> "get Paypal"

Do you realize that PayPal is not available in many countries, especially for receiving funds, and cashing them out?

There are, of course, workarounds...

Try this one too, it looks promising: http://www.noagenciesplease.com/

I have to ask, why not go somewhere that isn't full of bored programmers to offer free programming labor? It seems like you would be more likely to find someone who could really use your work literally anywhere else.

Better, as a programmer, to work for a programmer. This way he's more likely to get a modest-sized project where the "customer" actually understands what he's asking him to do and how long it would reasonably take.

Also, a much better chance of making useful contacts by working for some of the entrepreneurs here than by sprucing up the data entry system for your local used car dealer.

Not everyone on HN is a bored programmer.

However, for someone new to freelancing like me, it may be easier to work with people who are at least familiar with the development process, just to get a tighter spec from them. I'm also looking for to network with people who regularly need web development work, and HN looks like the best place to find people like that.

I'm always happy to outsource a few braincycles if it helps me to focus on the core of the app I'm building. I took him up on the offer.

I don't know, it would generally be nicer to know I'm working with someone who can tell where I'm doing better or worse than the average developer. The offer to work for free doesn't make a ton of sense unless you can get some meaningful feedback.

In that spirit, feel free to drop me a line as well. My actual experience is in shell scripting, Perl, PHP, MySQL, and Coldfusion with MS SQL, but I like Python, C++, and would love to pick up some other stuff. Contact info in profile.

In addition to other responses, I would have to say, working for another programmer also gives him the added value of a reference that actully knows what they are talking about when it comes to technical matters. In freelancing and consulting, a network of individuals that can recommend your work is a valuable asset. It makes the difference between a $150 an hour freelancer and someone who is competing in the market of mediocrity at $20 hr rates.

Try posting at http://www.reddit.com/r/favors .

I think this is an awesome, disruptive, and unconventional idea. Sure, you could go to elance or any other board and do any "normal" work, but here at HN you're likely to find some interesting ideas, and by making this free, it's also likely that you'll get the weird, interesting, and just maybe highly-lucrative stuff. Good luck - if I can come up with a cool concept I'll drop you a line.

Why not just build something of your own and put it out there as a product?

See http://www.tawheedkader.com/2010/04/how-i-used-heroku-chargi... for inspiration.

This is golden advice for a would be entrepreneur, and perhaps even for a freelancer. You can even open source the code which is a nice way to give back to others who learn more quickly by example like myself.

I'd be worried about legal ownership issues with this. If someone just writes code for you and says, "Here you go, it's free" I'm not sure that would really work. There has to be a contract in place (right?), and can contracts be "for free"? I guess this could be structured as an internship, but I read here awhile ago that those are being cracked down upon in the US.

Here's one idea: Have ehansul write and open source code that would be helpful to you. That way there are no ownership issues.

I don't see any problems having contracts which do not enable any compensation for the party doing something. And even many FOSS projects want copyright waivers (I think that's the term) for any patches they receive.

Offer your help to non-profits instead. They can give you tax credits for it. So even if they don't pay you cash you can pay less income tax at the end of the year.

Everyone: I'm sorry if you've emailed me and I'm taking more than an hour to reply now. It's taking me a little time to evaluate all the requests I'm getting.

More requests are welcome, but I am unlikely to be able to actually do more until later. If you contact me though, when I am done with the work I take up now, I can start with yours. You'll get a reply from me regardless of course.

elance.com

There are tons of opportunities that you can take on even if you have nothing in your portfolio. Do what you do but earn some cash doing it.

Good luck.

I actually can't legally use elance.com, odesk.com, etc. due to silly reasons. It's also not easy to get started there without a portfolio and rates are way low, not just at first, but always.

I actually found the first "free" client on elance, contacted him outside of it with a demo of what him wanted for free, and integrated into his website for him. I've gotten his trust and confidence in my abilities without any portfolio whatsoever, and a small paid job as well. So I think the "free first time" method is valid. I'll just have to wait and see if this was really a good idea.

This is really a good and potentially very disruptive idea. It would be interesting to how far he can take this and monetize this.

I am going to take him up on his offer. I have specific requirements and i have a working prototype of the same , it would be interesting to see what he makes of it (provided of course he takes me up on it.)

I think it's a good idea. Not for everyone of course, one size doesn't fit all.

Often just having a deadline for doing something is enough motivation to actually do it. I find myself procrastinating on personal projects, while I can finish (or at least get close to finishing) projects with clear deadlines pretty much on time.

Why don't you volunteer your time to one of the projects listed on http://fairsoftware.net/startup-ideas-software-web-iphone ? That would go a long way to build your portfolio.

Dude, if you have no experience and are willing to work for free, at least go on RentACoder or whatever it's called these days and bid really low on a few projects that interest you.

Trust me, someone will bite. That place is the Grand Central of bottom feeders.

This is a good idea and I wish you luck with it.

Another great way to build your portfolio is to approach local non-profits and ask to volunteer to make web apps or website improvements for them. There is almost always a way to make a big difference.

I'm hoping to launch an online comic one day soon and could sure use some automation software to build each new page for me and make sure the links aren't broke. I'd also like to have a forum with voting similar to HN or Reddit.

(FYI: HN's forum software is open-source: http://arclanguage.org/)

Sweet. Thanks for the info!

Now I just need to learn HTML/CSS and maybe some JavaScript to build the rest. That's a lot less complicated than I had imagined. If I can get a few more strips drawn I may just be able to get this thing rocking sooner than I imagined.

I'm pretty sure most blogging/CMS software is up to the challenge of a webcomic.

Hmmmm. Okay. I'll have to look into it. I want to keep the look clean (think XKCD NOT SMBC) and I honestly have very little experience with this sort of thing. I haven't built a website since GeoCities and at the time the internet was an unknown and I did not involve myself in HTML/CSS much at all-- so web design is something I've not thought a lot about until recently.

How about you make a clone of OkCupid, but instead of finding dates people use it to find co-founders? That's something I, and I think a lot of other people, would like to see.

i bet you can find some small idea somewhere and create your own project, it will be a lot more fun and that way you'll learn easier too.

inb4 OP becomes overwhelmed and explodes

HN: Hire me. For free.