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Comment by oconnore | Hacker News Reader

The article is trying so hard it's hard to tell what the actual issue is.

It is dangerous to backfeed the grid -- you may kill the line worker coming to fix a blown transformer or downed line.

In some places a grid connection is considered necessary by the building code. If so, you must use proper equipment.

There's no citation or research about the laws in question in this article, or the Miami New Times article it cites as a source, or the WFTV article that it sources.

From what I gathered in reading the three articles there's a state code that mandates that homes must be hooked up to the electrical grid. With out seeing the law or it's history (e.g. when it was mandated), it's difficult to say if it's malice on the part of utilities or just a poorly worded law from 50 years ago.

Electricity is regulated, like water, because it's something people have a hard time living without in modern society. It's perfectly reasonable for the state to mandate that properties have power as a protection for tenants.

It certainly sounds like the power company is doing nothing to accommodate those who would like power by having policies in place for reporting solar hookups to protect linemen or offering bi-directional meters to avoid billing irregularities, but there's no evidence presented to support the assertion that they lobbied to prevent solar.

Florida has/had historically issues with power, especially as populations rose; the utilities were only willing to build generators if they could be guaranteed recovery. All this wasn't just about homes, but the power needs of the entire commercial, public, and safety infrastructure too.

>there's no evidence presented to support the assertion that they lobbied to prevent solar.

Oh FPL 100% did that. http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/election...

With that said, this article is fucking bonkers. It makes almost no sense and as you noted, the sources don't even line up with what they suggest they do. IFLS is bullshit.

Unless I'm missing something, the law doesn't require renewable energy generators to be hooked up to the grid. It just establishes some rules requiring you to safely connect to the grid if you are going to offset your power supply from the utility company with a renewable energy source. That's absolutely reasonable. Beyond that, anyone who has bought a house would also want some guidelines and code inspections to be done on something as complicated as a solar install, which this rule also requires if you are going to get your install certified to be interconnected with the power grid and receive excess generation credits.

https://www.flrules.org/gateway/RuleNo.asp?ID=25-6.065

So don't backfeed the grid when the grid is "off"

That has nothing to do with powering you own home from you own solar panels.

When the grid-tie inverter senses the grid is down (it could even be scheduled outage for maintenance) - it stops feeding the grid and only powers the house. When it senses the grid is back it ties to the grid again.

If you need to work on the house, there can be a master switch where the panels come into the inverter (law in Australia) so you can manually turn them off, thus ensuring none of the house has power.

Simple.

You can't run loads from cells directly, you need a battery and inverters. Or every cloud will fluctuate the voltage and watts massively and your electronics will fry. In the olden days, flickering incandescent would be fine.

You don't need inverters, strictly speaking. For some applications the battery voltage is just fine.

As the other reply says, it's quite possible to power electronics from the cells (but not directly). What you need to look for are the types of regulators and batteries used in caravans. Of course you cannot connect such a system directly to the grid.

Not exactly accurate. My Dad has a 7kw array grid-tie no battery system in FL.

It has a single emergency outlet that will provide up 1500w when the grid is down. With the power being down last week from Irma it was able to output at least a 1000w load even with heavy overcast. It will off course shut off if it can't provide the attached load.

If you have a solar system for home its going to have an inverter, but most likely no batteries, some inverters can provide emergency power without them.

Batteries obviously work much better for that scenario allowing them to buffer energy. But nearly all grid tie systems installed do not have batteries due to extra cost and maintenance.

7kw? Amazing! How large is the array? (sq ft) How much did that set him back?

In Australia 5kw is extremely common (20 250 watt panels) - out of pocket it's ~$5000 AUD.

Now that 280 watt panels are becoming common, up to 7kw is a "standard" install.

But you need three phase to go beyond 5kw if I understand correctly

I think you have to get permission to ensure that not too many people in your immediate area have over 5kw, otherwise the grid in that area might not be able to handle so much being pushed back in without upgrades.

I don't know about three phase.

Its half a barn roof, I believe its was around $15k installed.

Main issue I have seen with the law in FL for them is that they are net metered but the power bill can't go negative. So if they produce more than they use the power company doesn't have to pay them for it, also they always get a service charge no matter what. So their power bill ends up being about $20 a month no matter what which is just the service charge.

That's how net metering works for me in Oregon, too - I earn credits by over-producing all summer, and then use some of them up until Jan 1, as they won't roll over year-to-year. As a result I gave power away for free to the grid for several years, but now I have a plug-in hybrid to soak up the surplus.

Does his system meet code?

If so, it demonstrates that the article is, uh, not well researched.

Yes it was completely done to code. Here is the explanation of his inverter: http://www.smainverted.com/how-to-explain-secure-power-suppl...

The inverter doesn't backfeed for emergency power, it just has a separate output wired to a single outlet for emergency power.

Yeah I linked that page a few days ago (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15247172 ).

But the article would have us believe that it is illegal to use those inverters in Florida.

True but look at the percentage, a smaller setup would have very little useable load

The spark for the article, so I understand, is that regulation advocated by FPL made it illegal for homeowners to access that switch. So, in the wake of the hurricane, it was explicitly forbidden for folks with solar systems to power their own homes.

You are describing a rational, reasonable regulatory system. :) Sadly, not the one in force.

That's incorrect. To install a generator, which is legal, you are required to have and to use a manual transfer switch.

I don't know where the full building code which would require this is, but this describes it in part:

> Florida State Generator Law 526.143 > Alternate generated power capacity for motor fuel dispensing facilities

> As of June 1, 2007, all retail outlets selling motor fuel must be able to operate its distribution loading racks using an alternate generated power source ... Installation of appropriate wiring, including a transfer switch shall be performed by a certified electrical contractor.

Except the normal solar inverter can't do this. It doesn't see the grid, it doesn't produce power.

Yes, it's required for generators too. You have to install some sort of switch (I forgot what it's called) so the house power doesn't feed back into the grid and kill a lineman.

The title is very misleading as well. Just goes to show that Fox News and their ilk aren't the only ones who do fake news, it's journalism in general.

Also, the title is an outright lie: "Thanks to Lobbying, It's Illegal to Power Your Home with Solar Panels in Florida"

> ... have to install some sort of switch ...

A qualified electrician installs a "transfer" switch. It's two breakers tied mechanically so that one position feeds the house with line power, flipping it, the other is the generator.

I have one to keep my refrigerator, well and furnace running.

Does anyone actually still believe this? The idea that [journalism I agree with] is fair and [journalism I disagree with] is fake news was dead by last year. I can't think of a single general audience publication that hasn't transitioned to clickbaity, half truth nonsense. I have largely stopped reading the NYT and the WSJ for this reason. I still like the economist, but even they feel like they are slipping at times.

As what another redditor has said.

What FPL has done is require that solar installations get signed off by their electricians. And they delay, delay and delay that certification process. Meanwhile, you are paying for the cells and installation and it sits unused indefinitely.

If they can delay the process long enough, it effectively becomes illegal.

IFLScience is not "journalism in general." The acronym stands for "I F*%ing Love Science" and it got started as a Facebook page made popular for posting science-joke memes. The site and FB page, both run by Elise Andrew, are both fairly disliked in the Science Online community for misrepresenting studies, disseminating false information, and chronic copyright violations as she blatantly steals photos and art from others and fails to give credit.

This wikipedia article covers just a little of what Elise Andrew is guilty of:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elise_Andrew#Criticism_and_acc...

Links to this site have no business on HN.

Read the law. It is illegal to have a home not connected to the grid at all. so there is no danger about a backfeed since the 2 systems never meet.

Some local power companies had that inserted into city code.

I think you need to read the law. Nothing in the law requires you to be connected to the grid. Local laws and rules may require you to be connected to the grid to obtain a certificate of occupancy, but I have found no Florida state law requiring you to be hooked up to a power grid.

The law that is consistently referenced in these mostly conspiracy blogs is just a set of rules regarding offsetting your power consumption from a utility company with a renewable energy generator. It requires you to have a switch that they can access. The articles like this one https://boingboing.net/2017/09/18/rep-ray-rodrigues.html from Cory Doctorow, a Canadian, fundamentally misunderstand the law. They extrapolate from this sentence "Customer-owned renewable generation shall include a utility-interactive inverter, or other device certified pursuant to paragraph (4)(b) that performs the function of automatically isolating the customer-owned generation equipment from the electric grid in the event the electric grid loses power." that you have to shut off your power if the grid loses power. That's fucking nonsense and a complete misreading of that rule. All it requires if that you have a switch that the power company can use to disconnect your power generating house from the grid so that their linemen don't die when they are doing maintenance on a line.

I invite you to find anywhere in this law or any other Florida state law that says you must be connected to the power grid.

https://www.flrules.org/gateway/RuleNo.asp?ID=25-6.065

>What FPL has done is require that solar installations get signed off by their electricians.

No, what the state has done is required that if you're going to hook up to the grid to supplement your solar installation, you should do it safely. Of course FPL and the other utility companies have lobbied to benefit their bottom line, but spreading misinformation is not beneficial in the fight against them. It muddies the waters so that no one even knows what to fight against.

I have no idea why you are being downvoted. This thread makes me think eternal September has arrived on HN. People are running their mouths without any basic knowledge of electricity and national electric codes.

The same state rules require a breaker-switch on the solar panel feed, disconnecting it from the grid [1]. However, customers are not allowed to use that switch - it's for FPL use only.

[1] http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-09-18/florida-you-cant-us...

So add another switch before this switch, inside the house maybe, so you can switch it on or off. I read (some) of the FPL rules about this and nowhere did it say you cannot do this, it simply says so that the electrical workers can shut it off to the grid from outside, if necessary.

How come solar panels are ubiquitous elsewhere? Is it that e.g. Germany is risking the lives of line workers? Is Florida doing the right thing, or the wrong thing?

The same regulations exist in Germany also there is no way around them, in the UK if you want to either backfeed or connect a solar (or any other power source ) installation directly to your house mains you have to tick a ton of boxes including giving the power company control over the feed (basically when they shut down the power they also shut you down).

If you have a completely segregated solar installation no one cares.

Not the case in the UK at all.

Up to 4Kw the power distributor has to accept your connection and it is done on a post reporting basis. Over 4Kw you fill in a form and get generator permission from the distributor. I got mine in a few weeks.

Once it is grid connected, then the inverters isolate if they lose grid power. Since the UK has fairly good grid connections that rarely if ever happens.

Never a problem - except for the guns and butter brigade. Fortunately most of those who were that way inclined moved to the Americas 100 years or so ago.

You need a similar permit in Germany as well, but the government has pushed hard to make getting a permit as quick and easy as possible. Germany has also invested massive amounts of money to upgrade their grid infrastructure to handle all those solar panels feeding electricity back into the grid. Florida's grid looks completely different and simply isn't built to handle the same number of solar cells.

There are two options.

(a) If the grid goes down, your solar also is deactivated

(b) If the grid goes down, your house is powered separately by solar, but disconnected from the grid.

In Germany the second is more common, while in parts of Florida, the first is required.

All directly grid-connected inverters have backfeed protection built-in.

Bigger installations can have automatic switching from the grid to the inverter, much like an uninterruptible power supply. (This is technically possible with smaller installations as well, just uncommon, since it doesn't make a lot of sense)

> How come solar panels are ubiquitous elsewhere? Is it that e.g. Germany is risking the lives of line workers? Is Florida doing the right thing, or the wrong thing?

1. Florida does not provide any subsidies for solar installs (only the Federal 30% tax credit)

2. Florida utilities continue to lobby directly against solar, while sinking money into non-renewable generation technologies (this is changing, as some Florida utilities have thrown in the towel and have begun to plan to install utility scale solar and battery storage)

3. Unlike other states, utility power in Florida is already very inexpensive (~6 cents/kwh) generated from coal, natural gas, and nuclear, so there's less incentive than in other states to move to rooftop solar.

Source: Florida resident

I too am a Florida Resident and my power costs are 8.3 cents/kwh. (Duke Energy) I've attached my normal rate sheet below.

https://www.duke-energy.com/_/media/pdfs/rates/peratespefres...

I'm on TECO in Tampa: http://www.tampaelectric.com/files/content/resratesinsert.pd...

Not just that, but it also can make the whole grid unstable under certain conditions. Electricity is an EM wave and if everybody could leak the out of the phase energy into the grid it would create interferences and oscillations all over it.

All solar inverters that would meet any kind of standard synchronise to the frequency of the grid. They also cut out when they detect the grid is down.

For battery systems, they can keep going (like a UPS), but require an 'anti-islanding' switch which automatically isolates the system from the grid when it goes into that mode.

At least, this is all the case in in Australia (and Europe I believe), where we have some of the most households feeding the grid from solar in the world (as a percentage of homes).

There are clearly solar systems installed in Florida that are both grid-connected and capable of operating as backup power when the grid is down (see partway down the page) - http://pureenergysolar.com/residential_solar_installation.ht...

This is wrong, otherwise we won't install them. When they need to work they can cut the line without problem.

Also you can run the system in autonomous mode, no risk at all for worker, even it's a lie.

It'd still be nice if you could temporarily disconnect in order to power your own home, though.

Exactly, my point too. If you back feed, you usually get like 3.5c for each kwh you produce. The only problem is you generally pay 3x that to purchase when you are required to use electricity (et al. cloudy day). The shut-off thing is just common sense "don't kill they neighbor" doctrine.

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