Facebook to Open New Artificial Intelligence Lab in Montreal | Hacker News Reader

Facebook to Open New Artificial Intelligence Lab in Montreal

bloomberg.com

88 pointskimsk11225 comments

Go Montreal!

But ...

It's just another way to transfer the exceptionalism of the local talent into the shareholders of big American companies.

I know a few in the AI-crew in Montreal and some local government types.

What they fail to grasp is that we need 'companies' that sell 'products' and 'services' and have 'revenue' - not just a bunch of shiny R&D.

A few AI jobs will actually have zero impact on the local economy.

Now - if some cushy, ridiculous 'social network' were based here, it would employ thousands, and have thousands of others supporting them in other ways, they'd be paying taxes here, and forming a hub.

Unfortunately, AI may not be the best hub for an industry - as plain AI doesn't generally make for good products. It's almost inherently a 'component' type technology. It's going to go into 'everything' but the best positioned to take advantage of it are those who already have leverage, i.e. Valley companies, finance etc..

Crossing my fingers for Mtl though.

Yes. But saying "FB's AI lab is here" is massive marketing pitch. It certainly can't hurt.

Well to me it does seem, at least, as though the recent surge in public and private AI investments (Microsoft, Google, now Facebook) would have a positive local impact for AI researchers here. I mean with enough momentum it becomes self-sustaining with positive feedback loops: researchers have multiple local opportunities, so it makes sense to stay here in Montreal long-term, companies (even though they only need AI "as a component", as you say) have strong incentives to establish AI labs here, AI grad students have local job offers and don't get told they'd better leave for better career prospects, etc.

It's a bit early to conclude concerning the long-term "impact on the local economy" as you mention, but I guess it can't hurt to shine internationally in one more respect.

EDIT: I'd add also that there are quite a few AI-centered startups, where AI is the forefront and not just a component, e.g. look at this:

https://medium.com/@shivon/the-current-state-of-machine-inte...

and startups certainly contribute to the local economy. A local ecosystem around AI could foster such startups, I guess, so again not hurting.

It's a positive development.

But I'm not sure really that 'startups' contribute to the local economy.

The average restaurant has more revenues, and employs more people than the average startup.

The real value of most startups in Montreal is almost nil.

The 'startup contribution' generally only happens when there are large, incumbent, dominant entities that are formed. This is because of mass employment, and all of this spin-offs. Particularly - 'large dominant entities' are cash-flush and spend a lot on spurious acquisitions, etc. etc..

80% of acquisitions fail, but it still makes economic sense for big companies to buy, as there is potential upside. Without cash-flush behemoths, startups have nowhere to park - either they do an IPO or stay private forever - which is fine, but it's not generally how the ecosystem works well.

Bombardier, based in Montreal - employs 66 000 people (!!!).

$16 Billion in revenue.

So, just a 1% change in their head-count = all of the startups in Montreal.

If Bombardier secured a decent set of contracts for their mid-sized Jet - that's a definite boon for Montreal.

AI 'revenues' in Montreal ... I don't think have come close to exceeding the investment the provide/feds have made in it.

I think they will break even on it, but we need companies, not tech.

Concerning the contribution of startups, I don't have much hard numbers, but my comment was motivated by this article I recalled reading:

http://affaires.lapresse.ca/economie/201611/10/01-5039742-le...

which states that Montreal startups (by their definition) employ around 10,000 people. Of course those behind that study - local "startup scene" people and governmental instances - would have some incentive to inflate the numbers, but still, it seems larger than what you assume (1% of 66000 ~= 600 - 700 jobs). It's not Bombardier, but it's not negligible either.

I'm not sure what to say about your larger point, because I'm not sure if you're advocating something in particular. Are you saying it would be better if Facebook, Google etc. didn't open labs here, e.g. to avoid competition for local AI specialists? Or maybe you're just drawing attention to that drawback. In any case, I'd just say I'd hope it's not a zero-sum game. With better opportunities, the pool enlarges because 1) people come from abroad and 2) it makes sense for local people to specialize (e.g. pursue a PhD) in that direction.

It solves the first part of the problem: attracting a lot of local talent. Now you just need an incubator and/or VC money to seed a bunch of local startups.

Right. When I heard that announcement it sounded a bit like déjà vu... Same thing happened in France. Yay, we've got all the big GAFA research labs! Why? Because they get a bunch of subsidies/tax credits. Effect on the economy? Meh.

This is in some respects what element.ai is aiming to supplement. And having spent a lot of time in the ML community, there's a strong urge from a proportion of the students to start their own companies after finishing their studies as well.

What this does is ensure any intellectual property from Montreal talent (mostly from academia) will directly go to an American company rather than staying within Canadian labs and start ups

It would seem the rumors are true, Montreal is becoming a global headquarters for the golden age of artificial intelligence.

Except that it has no 'headquarters' and all the important decisions, revenues, hiring, marketing, PR, taxation is happening elsewhere. Outside of 'Element AI' - which has yet to prove itself - we have a lot of work to create an actual industrial base.

This is a great point. Canada has a long history of developing branch plants to the US and selling mid-sized companies rather than growing them.

I mean, there are worse things. It took a long time before the country realized that inward flowing FDI was not a bad thing.

On the other hand, we live in complex times and Silicon Valley companies aren't making a great reputation for themselves as trustworthy partners.

How is it any different than Hollywood becoming a centerpoint for making movies, even though most decisions are made in New York? At least, that was how the first several decades of Hollywood worked. And still, some studios or their executives who approve projects are headquartered actually in New York.

How so? A remote research lab is often time, a trophy, but usually not a powerhouse. The rule of thumb is still the same, you need to get close to the center, the center of decisions, to get your ideas and plans implemented.

I don’t want to make a negatively geared comment just for the sake of it, however (and there’s often a however after such words) facebook and other platforms where the product is the you - the person deeply troubles me especially when said company invests heavily in data sciences that will likely be used to market products to or get more information from again - people.

How much of this is FB wanting to go to Montreal? And how much of this is FB anticipating (AI) regulation in the USA?

Montreal is already well known to be a hotbed for excellent machine learning talent.

Google already has their own Montreal AI lab, and they have also made a donation to the Montreal Institute for Learning Algorithms (MILA)[1].

I'm less familiar with the exact details of this, but Montreal might also be a nice place to relocate researchers that cannot get work authorization in the United States.

[1]: https://www.wired.com/2016/11/google-opens-montreal-ai-lab-s...

I live in downtown montreal and I can assure it's also a great place to live. Far more cheaper than a Bay area location and it's pretty peaceful.

You mean except in the winter.

Heating isn't that expensive

And while I haven't met all of them, Canadians in general are quite friendly.

Good / interesting point about work visas. Makes sense. Also creates some political clout in that a small team easily becomes "Look!! FB prefers Canada over the USA. We need to adjust..." You know how politicians are. Champions of hyperbole. And FB knows this ;)

Quebec likes to do things differently when it comes to immigration and work visas than the rest of Canada. I can explain it a bit here though IANAL.

To get a work visa in Quebec, the employer have to apply to MIDI (Quebec's Immigration dept.) Your application will undergo a review process called LMIA, Labor Market Impact Assessment. The employer have to prove that you are not replacing a worker here and the employer finds it hard to recruit a local talent. Once thats done, the work visa should be applied in Federal Level, which will grant you 2 years closed work permit. The closed work permit means you cannot work for anyone else. This entire process will take around 5-6 months. You will get CAQ(Quebec acceptance certificate) and a work visa stamped in your passport with which you can land and start working for the employer.

In order to continue working after 2 years, you have to get something called CSQ (Quebec Selection Certificate) , which will be based on your work experience,education,age,language skills on a points based system. You will have to satisfy a minimum cut off points.

If you speak and understand excellent French, you will get CSQ within 1 month under the PEQ priority category. If you don't, CSQ will take around 6 - 8 months in the Regular in land applicant priority. You can then use this CSQ to keep extending your work permit. Usually its good to apply for Permanent Residence after obtaining CSQ. Permanent Residence should be applied to Federal govt after CSQ which will take around 1 year to be approved.

To summarize, if you know French, things will be faster for getting a CSQ. Federal will take 1 year.

If you have family, you will have to think about the school system in Quebec and the language laws and read more about Quebec Bill 101. The health system in Quebec lacks a lot of doctors. So finding one will be little bit difficult for a new comer. There are more quirks about living in Quebec than the rest of Canada.

https://www.immigration-quebec.gouv.qc.ca/en/immigrate-settl...

that seems like a faster track to citizenship than just federal system.. Do you know how it compares? I've only looked at it briefly, but it seems similar with lesser requirement (not french specific) and longer duration.

Comparison, an ideal scenario:

Direct PR from Federal = 6 months.

Quebec Inland = 6 months (CSQ) + 1 year(Federal).

Quebec Outland = unknown number of years, I know cases which are 4 years waiting for a CSQ.

So it boils down to how many points you have. If you satisfy points in the Express Entry system currently, then its the way to go. Go ahead and apply to the Express Entry system online. Else land in Quebec with a temporary work permit & go thru the Quebec CSQ route. The Quebec CSQ is also based on points. Not every occupation is in demand in Quebec. IT certainly is.

Note: PR is not equal to citizenship. Canadian citizenship can be applied after 4 years(I think) of continuous residence in Canada after PR.

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