In the Canada case specifically, the pay gap for software engineers between the USA and Canada is about 2-3x if you're at the top of your field. The real mystery to me is why Canada has any software engineers at all. I'm a Canadian SE living in Canada currently and I wouldn't dream of working for any companies located here, including e.g. Amazon or IBM.
Judging by Facebook, about ninety percent of my high school class in a small town in Texas stayed within a half hour's drive after 30 years.
One of my coworkers in the 90's moved from Canada to Austin and eventually moved back to Canada. It was just cheaper to live in Canada with a family for him at that time, even with the pay disparity - and he was super talented in a niche field, I think the other major option for him at that time was California.
For all kinds of political and social reasons, I would never move to the US. Key examples:
- The disaster that is the US health care system - Even more endemic systemic racism than Canada has - Even left-wing politicians are to the right of what I prefer in Canada
All that, plus I'm not in this for the money. I make a comfortable living and live in a gorgeous city, and there aren't any cities in the US I would want to live in.
I'm happy in Canada. I'd probably also be happy in Europe or even Asia, but I can't picture being happy in the US.
Still, there is a lot of "top talent" who chooses not to go that route. Working on my own stuff I get to work on much more interesting and challenging stuff -- as well as making a larger personal contribution to "changing the world" in a small way -- than I would likely achieve if I was working as a software engineer at google. I don't earn as much, but my quality of life is much better.
> The disaster that is the US health care system
Doesn't affect engineers in the US. It's actually the opposite. If you can afford a good insurance plan, the health care services are way better than in Canada. No problem finding a GP, and you never have to wait for an appointment.
> Even more endemic systemic racism than Canada has
If you're white, come to the US to make the situation better. If you're a visible minority, this is a good point. But it really does depend on where you live in the US.
> Even left-wing politicians are to the right of what I prefer in Canada
Not in California. Keep in mind that states have much more power in the US than provinces do in Canada.
In the end, there's more to life than money. For me, I live here due to the superior weather and wider range of opportunities to work on cool stuff.
Living far away from family and friends is a big downside. Nationalism plays no part for me.
> Doesn't affect engineers in the US.
It affects engineers who care about people other than themselves.
It also affects engineers who get sick. And engineers who have a baby born with a medical issue and can't get coverage because the complex birth cost $0.5M.
And engineers who can't change job or start a business because they have an existing condition and can't get new insurance.
So, yes, for engineers who stay lucky and don't care about their neighbors, it's not a problem.
[edit: Don't get me wrong, I love lots of things about the US, but the healthcare system is insane.]
This is a bit of Canadian propaganda and mythology.
I lived in the US (and Canada) and the US has the best healthcare in the world bar none - for those who are covered.
The 'flaws' which are deep - is that it doesn't cover everyone, if you don't have coverage, you are totally screwed, and it's obscenely expensive.
For a 20-30 something 'STEM' it's actually much better. Doctors will actually listen to you, you don't wait for stuff, it all just seems magically better than Canada.
Again - I'm not ignoring the deep systematic problems with the US system - rather taking a more nuanced view.
I think the US system could be more socialized (and cheaper) than it is, but for 'those with good jobs' ... it doesn't matter.
And when I say 'propaganda' - I'm serious. I believed all this CBC-promoted stuff until I lived abroad for many years, then one looks back on one's youth and thinks about all the things we were told that were 'given as truth' but really are not :).
Anyhow, it's complicated obviously.
Aka concern trolling.
The 'Canadian view on the street' of the 'American system' is misinformed, and it's largely due to a certain consensus promoted within the Canadian elite. It's a very highly politicized issue.
As another Canadian ex-pat pointed out below (and as so many Canadians living in the US can attest to) - the 'Canadian consensus view' on the American system is not correct.
FYI - Canada is the only country in the world wherein it's legal to pay a mechanic to fix your tire, but it's illegal to pay someone to fix your broken arm.
I personally had to live through this conundrum. The 'official position' in Ontario is to move people away from doctors - and to push them into clinics where they can't get 'long term' type of care.
I was sick - and there were no doctors in my region taking patients. I was forced to go to a clinic where they couldn't properly diagnose me. They didn't care at all, as the are 99% dealing with 'kids with colds and the flu'. Every time I went I saw a new doctor. I was ill, with weird symptoms, the doctors 'didn't give a s*' - and there was nothing I could do about it within the system.
I finally went to the 'Cleveland Clinic' - an American not-for-profit entity operating in a 'grey legal area' in Toronto, and they helped out. Thankfully, nothing serious - but it could have been.
I have family members in Canada who waited years for hip and knee replacements - and they think this is 'normal'.
Most Canadians who have no exposure to 'other' systems have a limited view of their own system vis-a-vis others.
I wouldn't want 'the American system' for Canada, and it's far from perfect, but it has some merits which are often overlooked by the CBC-centric types.
Cleveland Clinic (in Ohio) is a superior organization. World class. They were one of our early adopter customers (when I was doing electronic medical records exchanges).
Your story of having a rare (hard, difficult to diagnose) disease and not getting the care you need is the norm. This has happened to me many times.
I suspect (Atul Gawanda style) the root cause is care providers are basically organic expert systems doing triage. They are taught to do their best and then move on. Do the maximum good with limited resources.
Your fix was to find the care you needed. Do not accept No for an answer. Someone somewhere has the answers you need. You did the right thing.
--
One of my besties got a terminal diagnosis, second opinion, third opinion. Decided he was too young to die, so he started looking at available clinical trials. Luckily, he exactly matched a trial for immunotherapy for his specific disease. He then found a superior doctor willing to support, manage his treatment goals, plans.
Another one of my besties has advanced Lyme Disease. It's terrible. He moved across country to be near the 2nd best specialist, to better manage his care. He regularly goes to NYC to see the #1 specialist. Further, he is now something like an angel funder for early stage research. He has actually benefitted from these early results.
My own story is similar. I had aplastic anemia. I've had numerous experimental treatments, first for the anemia and then for the subsequent side effects (GVHD). I'm a living miracle of modern technology. I have so many war stories (both good and bad), it's boring.
--
Here's the thing. You, me, my two friends are not the norm. We're the outliers. Changing the payment system, insurance, whatever does not fix this problem.
Perhaps teaching doctors to escalate is the solution. Perhaps connecting similar patients, by matching symptoms. Perhaps data mining. Apple's healthcare initiatives will certainly help (eg matching patients with trials). I keep asking everyone I meet for their ideas.
Lastly, back to the point, Canadians spend less on healthcare, are healthier, and live longer than USA people. The Canadian system is superior. Simple statement of fact.
The US is by far and away not racist.
I lived in the US for many years and never saw someone ever - ever - do or say anything racist, either directly or through ignorance.
I'm not saying the US doesn't have problems - I'm saying that in every day life, issues are 'systematic' not remotely 'hateful'. Also - the US has a massive population of ex-slaves, and very poor people from Latin America. 'Racism' might be somewhat of an issue for example in the Asian community, but not remotely in the same sense that it is for African Americans. Canada has lots of E. European and Asian immigrants, and very few people of African or Central/South American descent, and os the issues are just softer. Canadians attitude is a reflection of their situation.
America has many flaws, and racism is one of them - but it's not some kind of cesspool.
Even less racist than almost all of Europe, even the 'fairly progressive' Scandinavian countries - who have 'laws and policies' which are very progressive - but who's culture is so deep, and so fixed, it's really quite difficult for anyone who is not 'Swedish' to actually integrate and participate.
A 'foreigner' has considerably more hope of success in America than in Sweden. Admittedly, a 'foreigner' might have a better hope of a 'decent life' in Sweden, though.
Almost everywhere else in the world is openly and unabashedly racist ... there is only some awareness in situations where there is a peculiar awareness, i.e. 'Euro' vs. 'Metzo' American class issues in South America.
Some software engineers care about maternity leave, universal health care, and the welfare of their fellows that don't have software engineer salaries.
If you were to expand it to 'disaster capitalism', profiting (exploiting) the misfortune of others while intentionally making things worse, then I'd be in agreement.
A hurricane is a disaster. The US healthcare racket is a deliberate snafu.
If you're talented, have marketable skills and an ability to promote yourself, you should be making at least 70k in most Canadian cities. Given the job market and cost of living increases in the last few years, this isn't particularly high.
Anyone settling for 40k or so (and not fresh out of school) I think should take a close look at other opportunities.
You just could have done without that first and last statement. I'll inform the UNV you won't be signing up anytime soon. I don't see taking a low salary as settling in every case. Many Canadian businesses just simply cannot pay that level for certain skills, and if you want to believe in your friends, colleagues and fellow countrymen sometimes you take a hit to what you think you're worth to help build. I wasn't complaining outright, myself. I was adding a data point. Averages can be helpful information.
It's encouraging for other reasons that you're yet another counter-point promoting that there are better-paying opportunities, though. I'd hate to paint a grim picture. Regardless I love it here (in Canada. I could move out of the city again)
Certainly there are jobs paying more, but they are far from the norm.
At which point I realized that they were using "javascript expert" to mean something very, very different, than I was.
Perhaps kcorbitt's "a good senior developer" means something different than glassdoor's "senior software engineer"?
They do, and so do most other countries.
The US has a 'very large market' that is 'capital friendly' and has a lot of 'early adopters' and consumers that love the latest, newest fad.
So, 'market dominance' is so many things will come from America.
One of the reasons America pushes for 'free markets' is because there's no need for geostratic shennanigans otherwise.
Ex: If Canada (or other countries) opened up their telecom sector to aquisition - even on 'even terms' - do you think Rogers, Telus and Bell (Canadian) would be buying up Verizon, TMobile and Sprint? No. The other way around. Canadian firms would be immediately aquired by American firms. Same for everything else. All of the 'top jobs' would go to the US, and the only thing left in Canada would be 'customer service' 'local marketing' and 'field ops'.
The same thing for developing countries x100.
'Free Trade' plays very naturally into Americas strengths, and it's an easy line to promote, because the 'short term net advantages' are supposedly positive for everyone (though, generally capital).
FYI - Canada/US comp. has a lot to do with Oil prices. Oil prices high = Canadian salaries almost at par with the us.
(Remember that the vast majority of US STEMS are not earning 'high end Google salaries'). Low Oil prices means you can earn considerably more in the US.