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When I worked in Canada, I started a consulting company because high salaries were very hard to find. Now Trudeau is making it harder to make money in consulting by going after corporations aggressively. There is a severe salary shortage problem in Canada and instead of fixing it we end up with articles talking about how $60K CDN in Waterloo is better than $105K US in the Valley. We also end up with the idea that it's fair to compare base to base as if the valley didn't have bonus and RSU's (I've seen a lot of companies in Canada that don't have bonus or stock payments, enough that I'd even say it's the norm). I think at it's core Canada is a smaller market so most companies have a Revenue or Potential Revenue problem which turns into a fundraising problem which turns into a Salary problem. I have sympathy for start-ups trying to make it in a tough market, but it's pretty ridiculous to think about this as a HR style recruiting/retention when you generally talk to the right people but they pass on comp.

Wow, $60k CAD is really low. I don't think the smaller market is enough to explain it. In Israel the market for most startups is practically nonexistent, yet typical salaries are >$100k with Google/MSFT senior devs making more than $200k CAD.

Many of the Israeli startups are structured as dual US-Israeli companies with sales and marketing in the bay area and R&D in Tel-Aviv. Canadians could pull this stunt a lot more easily, since the geographical distance timezone and culture are much closer to the bay area.

The idea is that $60k CDN in a market where $300K CDN buys a semi-detached and $500k CDN buys a detached house is a good rate. To me I say if you really want to live there consider doing a 3-year tour on a TN in SV on a frugal budget and move back with your house paid off. Or do 15 years in SV then retire to a nice environment in Canada in your 40's.

It's not just money (though it is a big factor). The lower variety of jobs, the smaller startup pool, the more risk-averse investment community and proximity to the US all play a role.

I'd also wager it's harder for consumer-focused companies to take off in Canada: geography and our small population work against gaining scale. It's much easier for a US company to gain scale and move North. To do the equivalent, a Canadian company would have to learn to become global fairly early.

Oh, and, apropos of nothing, Canadian management talent is poor.

The money is a sine qua non. You won't have the startup pool, therefore investors, without the well-paid employees who go on to start the startups.

I think starting a company in Canada has a first addressable market problem which leads to a revenue problem which leads to a VC investment problem which leads to a talent problem. I want this to be fixed because I like living in Canada better than the US but won't do it at less than half the savings per year.

I came to Canada as software professional from the middle east. At one point, Canada had a glimmer of hope in attracting tech talent.

However, on the ground, tech professionals are 'forced' to start up their consulting companies, get hunted down by taxes, threatened daily with outsourcing initiatives (extremely low caliber), and have no prospect of career advancement. Either this or accept a meager pay.

Why wouldn't they look elsewhere?

Anecdotal evidence 2: I live in Canada and make US salary. It's amazing.

Canada is a joke when it comes to software salaries. For the last 10 years, you'll get $110K tops as a senior dev. In 2009(?) I had an offer for $110K. Last year I had an offer for $100K. Haven't made a Canadian dollar since 2007, but figured I'd try.

If anything, Canada should be an offshoring panacea. We are among the best educated, most creative, stable countries in the world and our developers are stupid enough to work for peanuts.

Care to chat about your experience?

Sure. Send me an email. Username @ gmail

> The biggest challenge as a country is retaining and recruiting the best people to build industries in Canada and not lose them to other jurisdictions

Yup. I moved to Europe directly after my undergrad and was offered the equivalent of 90k CAD for a junior position. And I was entitled to 20 days paid vacation per year, by law. Not Paid Time Off (PTO) like they have in Canada.

Get sick? Go to the doctor and stay home. It's not vacation (since you're sick) so you keep your vacation days. I've heard if you get sick while on vacation you can reclaim the days, though that's never happened.

I've thought about moving back occasionally. But if I took my current European contract to any Canadian employer I'd be laughed out of the interview.

Besides, it's nice here. Nearly the whole continent is <3 hours away by plane, so there's always somewhere new and interesting to visit with your copious annual vacation ;-)

What kind of development work do you do?

Python software development for a German mittelstand.

Higher education in Germany is still free? I had no idea

In some states. NRW this year just introduced tuition for foreign students.

As far as I know, for all domestic students tuition is still free (unless it's a private university).

I'm in a similar situation now. I'm a Canadian who spent the better part of a decade outside of Canada. Had no intention of moving back, but eventually did for family reasons. I now work remotely, for foreign clients (mostly US-based).

I eventually ended up in a small university town on the east coast. Great combination of low cost of living, walkability of the town, many cultural events, and other things that allow a small town to punch above its weight in terms of general activity and things to do.

I'm generally surprised, looking at the cost of living in some Canadian cities, like Toronto and Vancouver, that more people don't seek out interesting towns with lower costs of living--especially for remote workers.

Family is usually the reason.

My senior team members and peers earn in the range of $120k - $140k in Toronto. I earn quite a bit more, having management experience helps to break past those ranges. I hear Amazon Toronto is paying up to $160k for IC's.

That's great. Someone I know makes more than twice that. https://imgur.com/mfOlO27

The key part being "up to" and "senior team members"

All the numbers you quoted are for mid tier in SF. Yes cost of living is higher here, but the salary taps out quite a bit lower.

Three of my colleagues own houses in San Francisco. Multiple of others own homes in Oakland or San Mateo. None of us are very special people, in other words just normal ICs and people who work hard, but not endlessly.

To work as a Senior Dev in Toronto means topping out at 160k. To work as a senior dev here in SF means starting at 210k and only going up from there. That's more than cost of living differences can cover.

I got a $160K base in Canada at a good opportunity and $140K base without too much effort. But I had a great pedigree, a ML + software background and my Resume had a 90+% follow-up rate. Admittedly this was Toronto which outside of Vancouver is unlike the rest of Toronto. You need to find the right opportunities though because a lot of organizations cap out at $110-$150K depending on who they are and what they value.

Agreed, this is the elephant in the room and by far and away the primary cause of the tech exodus.

In my experience compensation in the US (comparing major cities to major cities) is 2-5x higher than in Canada. I'd hazard a guess and say I'm right now making 4x what my job would be paying in Canada.

Another big problem is that cost of living continues to rise in Canadian tech hubs - Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver are all astronomically expensive relative to compensation, and costs continue to rise rapidly. Despite some upwards movement in recent years in tech salaries, the COL increases have often outpaced it.

To Canadian employers who are serious about reversing the brain drain: you have to find ways to pay talent more, everything else is just details.

But this is the problem everywhere. In the states that's the reason outsourcing is such a huge boner for companies. They refuse to pay the market rate for Americans who will not work six jobs in IT for the pay of one. So they then claim they can't get enough skilled American workers to fill their jobs so they outsource for cheap. It's been like this since at least the early 90s. They want a DBA, network engineer, security engineer, sysadmin, tech support in one person for the price of one of those jobs. When those are individual jobs. But they want you to do it all and pay you for only doing one of those jobs. It is rediculous. So that's why Canada and the US claim there are shortages, you are correct that it comes down to unrealistic salaries by companies. They simply need to realize how hard, and complex IT is and that they MUST pay more to get the talent to develop and maintain this insanely complex world of technology we are in.

Disagree on Montreal. Cost of living here is good.

Same. Canadian working in the US. Make 2-3X what I would have made in Canada, and have moved up very quickly.

I'd love to come back to Canada and pay taxes to Canada instead of the US.

But won't happen unless the $ is there.

Agreed. Canada seems like a fine place to live. I'm from Upstate New York so the climate isn't a big deal for me. But the low pay and insane housing costs are almost comical.

Just curious, where in Europe do you live? Clearly, not the UK. The salaries there seem ridiculously low.

Germany.

As of March 2019 the UK won't be Europe anymore ;-)

Was it difficult to make the move to Germany from Canada? (I'm a tech worker in the US interested in going expat at some point)

> Was it difficult to make the move to Germany from Canada?

From a visa perspective, it's so freaking easy. Take a copy of your university degree, and your employment contract from a German company.

Go to the Foreigner's office (Ausländerbehörde) and get a work visa or Blue Card, depending on your salary level.

Took me 6 weeks to get a work visa. Total cost was around 150€.

From a cultural perspective, it might be difficult. There are a lot of companies who will hire people with only English (especially startups, though expect less money) but the society is very German.

The language isn't terribly easy either, so you'll probably have to invest in language courses to learn it. Unless you are very self-motivated and good at self study.

If you're American though, things get a lot harder. Lots of banks here won't deal with you because of FINCEN/FBAR, and you have to file IRS taxes every year (and from what I hear from friends, they're too complicated to manage yourself). It can still be done, but is more difficult due to taxation requirements.

Thank you!

I wasn't aware that Brexit involved relocating the island to another continent...

There doesn't seem to be a huge difference in salaries between Germany and Canada, at least on average.

https://www.daxx.com/article/it-salaries-software-developer-...

Salaries vary wildly across Europe (and probably across different areas of the same country), if you get to choose, move to Switzerland :)

> I wasn't aware that Brexit involved relocating the island to another continent...

It doesn't, but it does have implications for visas and freedom of movement between the UK and continent.

> if you get to choose, move to Switzerland

Sure, I hear salaries there are amazing. But have you visited? It seems the cost of living is INSANE.

I've seen plenty of listings for jobs in Germany (on HN, even) paying like €50k for a senior position (5+ years experience). Ignoring currency conversion, that's right around the money you'd expect to make as a fresh junior developer in Canada...

As far as I can tell, all of the money in Europe is either in Switzerland, or in contract work which is pretty much the same situation Canada is in, just replace Switzerland with the US.

> paying like €50k for a senior position (5+ years experience)

It depends on the location. That's probably about right for Berlin, but would be ridiculously low in Frankfurt/Munich/Hamburg/Köln. If you want a better idea of salary ranges, check the expat forum Toytown Germany. [0]

It also depends on the company and your negotiating skills. I've had job offers in the low €50k from companies in Berlin for a normal position.

> Ignoring currency conversion

Why would you ignore the currency difference? The Euro buys you a lot more than the Canadian dollar does, even factoring in higher VAT in Europe. I also find the cost of living is lower in Germany than in Canada. Food is certainly much cheaper, and my general impression is that housing is also cheaper (to rent).

€50k = $72k CAD

You probably won't make this as a junior developer in Canada, and if you do, it's probably somewhere like Vancouver or Toronto where the cost of living is very high.

[0] https://www.toytowngermany.com/forum/

In London all of the high-paid tech work is through consulting.

You should be making in between £500 and £700 per day.

It's not that bad.

My salary in the UK was £27.5k (North West England), I moved to Toronto and now I get paid £60,000 (about £70,000 including bonus and pension).

Best offer just prior to moving was £45k but that involved a move to London which would have hit my bottom line more than just staying put.

Toronto rents are about half London and other living costs are lower (electricity, transit etc).

£250k - £300k total-comp possible in finance (hedge funds / prop. trading firms) and large tech companies in London. Currently earning that, as do a few of my peers. £250k seems to be the standard, and if you're a high performer can get it up to £300k. This is for a 'staff' or so level.

> Canada doesn't have a problem with talent exodous, they have a problem that Canadian employers are stingy and then complain when all they have left are people willing to settle for half they'd make in the US, or 2/3rds of what they would make in Europe. [0]

That's not how prices work. Labor isn't a consumer good, wages aren't determined by the employer, they are determined by the goods they're eventually producing which the end user or consumer is willing to pay. If they pay less than what end user is willing to pay, then they lose labor to competition, if they pay more, than the increased price of the final good results in consumers going to the competition.

Canadian employers can't control the fact that their consumers don't pay higher prices for the things they producing/providing.

> Canadian employers can't control the fact that their consumers don't pay higher prices for the things they producing/providing.

I disagree with your logic, because:

1. Multinational companies pay Canadian engineers doing the same quality of work much less than American counterparts. The original article is from the former CEO of BlackBerry, a multinational company which could pay Canadians an equivalent salary, if they chose to.

2. Canadians do pay more for things than Americans do. Do a currency conversion from CAD to US and products sold in Canada (e.g. iPhone) are still significantly more expensive than US prices. We joke this is the "Canadian tax"

> Multinational companies pay Canadian engineers doing the same quality of work much less than American counterparts.

So tell me why don't multinational companies pay less to their American engineers, the same as their Canadian engineers?

> Canadians do pay more for things than Americans do

I oversimplified when I said "paying higher", it's more about profit margin. So lets say if a market is located in a much more geographically difficult area then people of that market could be paying more, but still that wouldn't result in higher profit margins when compared to a market which is easier to access.

These restrictions could be geographical, economic, political, regulatory, etc or a combination of these.

> So tell me why don't multinational companies pay less to their American engineers, the same as their Canadian engineers?

Because their American engineers would get better offers from other companies and leave?

I think it's pretty simple: Canadian companies feel like they don't have to pay American market rates for people, when Canadian market rates for the same position are much lower. They can't do this AND complain that employees are being poached by American companies who pay them more.

Either accept that by paying "market rate" in Canada you're in real danger of having employees leave to work in America, or pay your Canadian employees an equivalent salary to what they would make in America and they're far less likely to jump ship.

Then there's also 40%+ of taxes that you need to fork over. No wonder people are leaving.

If you are a highly-compensated American worker, add up your federal income, state/local income, property taxes (which are often incredibly high in some American jurisdictions), social security taxes and medicare taxes.

And then look and see if the taxes are actually higher in Canada.

I mean it's not fair to add property taxes if you're not gonna do the same but you do have a valid point.

It's way different if you're in Alberta (flat provincial tax) vs NY than for example Quebec (biggest tax burden in North America) vs FL for example. Those things do need to be considered.

In my case, the difference between Quebec and <insert any state> was a no brainer.

The reason I bring up property tax is that it varies so much in the U.S., and places without income taxes often have onerous property taxes. I live in MD, right outside of DC, and my property taxes are about 1/3rd of my parents in Ohio for very similarly priced homes.

I am a "highly compensated worker" who doesn't live in CA. My effective tax rate over the past 2 years was 28%. That's the grand total without any weasel moves to avoid taxation. I pay ~10k/yr in property taxes.

The reason I bring up property taxes is that the vary wildly in the U.S. I paid about $3,500 for my place in the DC area area. We have industry and income tax, so my property taxes are rather low. My parents live in Ohio and pay around $12,000 a year for a similarly priced home.

Our effective tax rate was 34% in CA. :-/ Not counting sales taxes or property taxes, since we rent and the amount that's passed on to us isn't clear. Our marginal tax, though, is 52%.

I made a graph comparison between Toronto Tax and Bay Area tax.

https://github.com/bsurmanski/TorontoSFTax

Torontonians pay less tax for income up to 200k. Note: I also did not include the SF 1.5% income tax in the comparison.

I don't know if it's just the money. I vastly prefer Montreal to SF, and I willingly took the paycut + taxation trade-offs because I prefer the way society works here (entertainment, health care, education, social status of non-white-collar jobs, etc.)

However, attempting to switch jobs, I find the gelid pace at which recruitment works here incredibly frustrating. People take weeks to reply. Sometimes they don't reply at all. When I visited SF I got offered an interview + a job in a single day.

Companies need to pay more, but currently they're failing at more than just that.