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Comment by rcarmo | Hacker News Reader

For me it's not so much the paranoia or the degree of security (which is an arguable point in itself) but the commodity of it. Touch ID lets me unlock my devices without having to re-position my upper body or move them in (practically) any way, and Face ID feels awkward (I'm typing this on the device that is likely an exception to that - a Microsoft Surface Pro - and Windows Hello's face recognition works beautifully, but I am _always_ facing it when I need it to unlock, so...)

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> Face ID feels awkward

Have you used it?

There's some app that uses the face++ api to do login using facial recognition, I can't recall the name of it off the top of my head but maybe you can find it with that info.

edit: how could I forget, it's the little known app called Alipay.\s

But wht was wrong with TouchID ? Were there any examples of it being weak security. What will be after Touch ID? Will Apple continue progress and built in PinchID - a tiny needle that sting you to test if you are you based on your blood/DNA?

This is a serious question. Because of there was noting wrong with Touch then why is it removed from new phone and replaced with Face ID.

Im also concerned about the data Apple will collect. I assume information about your face have to be very detailed so that this FaceID is secure. Is it really that of a push to see article in 6 months: FBI got a copy of whole Apple FaceDatabase and was able to identify and find a very dengerous criminal.

TouchID was removed because it took up space on the front of the phone and Apple wanted the screen to be bigger. There's no deeper reason than that.

> Will Apple continue progress and built in PinchID - a tiny needle that sting you to test if you are you based on your blood/DNA?

I struggle to believe you when you say that's a serious question...

> Im also concerned about the data Apple will collect.

The FaceID data will be stored in the secure enclave locally on your phone, just like TouchID data was. Apple will not collect it.

Second, facial features are more unique than fingerprints - according to apple's own presentation, there's a 1 in 10.000 chance that prints from different people would unlock it. With face ID, this becomes 1 in 50.000 (iirc).

I believe they said 1:50,000 and 1:1,000,000.

https://www.reddit.com/r/answers/comments/1ggc2q/why_do_euro...

He's not correcting the use of a period, he's correcting the numbers themselves. 1:50,000 and 1:1,000,000 vs 1:10,000 and 1:50,000

Unless you have a twin.

Twins have different fingerprints.

TouchID is trivially defeated by a 6-year-old:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2016/12/28/girl-u...

Did you read the article? Troy Hunt addressed that.

All the more reason for FaceID

> TouchID was removed because it took up space on the front of the phone and Apple wanted the screen to be bigger. There's no deeper reason than that.

The Pixel handset has the fingerprint sensor on the back of the phone. It appears to work quite well. Much of this needless outrage could be obviated by allowing multiple simultaneous biometrics for auth; while taking the phone out of your pocket, place your finger on the sensor to initiate FaceID.

> multiple simultaneous biometrics

That's very un-Apple.

> The Pixel handset has the fingerprint sensor on the back of the phone.

How would I use my phone on a desk without lifting it up? I can do that with TouchID, but if the sensor is on the back, I can’t.

I confess, never in my years of phone ownership have I had that specific use case, or considered that it might be important for others. Do you find yourself doing that often? If so, can I ask what for?

You can't really do that with the face id either, unless you loom over your desk in an awkward way.

From their promo video of iPhone X, FaceID works at angles over 45° (see the swimmer portion)

The FaceDatabase as you imply is stored on the phone in a secure enclave. None of this stuff is sent to Apple.

TouchID also is problematic if you're wearing gloves, which people who don't live in San Francisco do during non-trivial portions of the year.

Also fails constantly when you're doing certain physical tasks. It becomes nearly useless after a few hours of doing landscaping work.

Not sure if this applies to Apple's implementation, but my phone fingerprint recognition fails if my finger is wet (sweat, washing hands).

I haven't tried training it with a wet fingerprint.

This definitely applies to Apple's implementation. It's infuriatingly sensitive to even damp fingers, in my experience.

As long as you can easily unbutton your shirt:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2430654/iPhon...

> people who don't live in San Francisco

I find this humorous because for me, an Australian, San Francisco is quite cold and I wore gloves there.

> TouchID also is problematic if you're wearing gloves

And the touchscreen?

There are plenty of gloves designed to work with capacitative touchscreens (small wire mesh in the fingertips) but none that let you use TouchID.

Curious how much face one needs to show during winter for FaceID to work.

Well, you can always still use your PIN, same as you can with Face ID.

Not everybody has fingerprints. I may be the minority here, but I look forward to not having to enter my pin each time.

There are more people who cover their face (e.g. Muslim women wearing burkas) than people who don't have fingerprints. I wish they had both TouchID and FaceID.

Well, they do.

You have to decide which type of biometrics to use when you choose your model, but that's fine for a lot of cases (such as those who wear burkas or those who have no fingerprints).

Hopefully the return period gives people enough time to be sure they've made the right choice.

It was so they could remove the home button.

> without having to re-position my upper body

why would you unlock your phone if you're not going to look at it? I don't understand this argument.

I unlock the phone while it's still in my pocket, by the time it reaches eye level, it's already unlocked. And with a few muscles memory tricks, there's even a chance I have opened the right app without even looking in the fraction of a second it took me to take the phone out of my pocket.

I've actually never seen anyone doing that. I don't think that's a valid argument against Face ID. It's still faster than a PIN code and (seems) more secure than touch ID.

You've never seen someone unlocking their phone while they're taking it out ? It's fast, you might have missed it.

as fast as Face ID probably. I know I've seen people unlocking their phone by mistake in their pockets for sure.

I do the same even with PIN. I know where the keys are and have it unlocked before I'm looking at it.

my phone is currently sat on my desk, about 10 inches from my right arm. I can, and do, check messages on it, by only repositioning my arm to unlock it.

I easily read any messages by glancing at the phone, never coming into any decent imaging range.

If you have a mac you can use Messages to check your message on your laptop directly.

Pretty much everyone at your standard 9-5 office job has their personal phone with them all the time and their personal computer with them none of the time.

You can work on a mac...

Signing in to personal accounts on a work computer is a terrible privacy practice and also unprofessional IMO.

Turn on the front camera, lay the phone on your desk. Can you see your face in the image? Then you can unlock your phone by glancing over at it.

My phone is on my desk next to my laptop in the same place where I've been texting my wife for the past five minutes. I have turned on the front facing camera.

My phone can see the very corner of my head and about half of my eyebrow. I do not want that to be enough to unlock my phone.

Apple would be happy to sell you a watch for that…

One reason would be ApplePay. At least in Europe most payment terminals have their NFC sensors on their side, so you're supposed to hold your phone flat with the side of a box, so the selfie camera just points to the wall on your left. In that position, there is no way that the camera of your iPhone could see your face.

Compare this to Touch ID, where you hold your phone to that box with your finger on the sensor and half a second later you've paid - very convenient.

I would take a guess that Apple has not yet tested any iPhone X with a European payment terminals and will get a lot of angry emails once people try that combination.

I wonder if you can Face ID to work with your butt or other body parts, similar to how people got Touch ID to work for certain "non-thumb" parts of the body.

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