I wonder what will happen to a generation obsessed with idols who don't contribute anything to society aside from memes, hot bodies and various rants.
But I guess I'm just old and grumpy.
But I guess I'm just old and grumpy.
Unlike the previous couple of generations who contributed a global financial crisis, multiple unnecessary wars, massive environmental destruction, and a rising wave of racism and populism.
See, I can pick and choose things too.
Correlation isn't causation though. :)
Looks get you in the door here, but the large majority of movie stars are experts in a legitimate art form -- acting.
Nope. There is no difference. @jonknee is right. I once met this camera grip boy at a boxing fight watch here in San Francisco. He worked at various sets in L.A., very close to the filming. He would say how he was on Kim Kardashian's "Reality Show" and how the whole thing was completely scripted for shock effect, drama etc. He said "They'd sometime do retakes and tell Kim - "This time yell at your sister louder, and then throw in a I hate you B*tch at the end."
They are all actors. The only difference I see is hollywood actors are elite level, having gone to school, and experienced and top notch, whereas the likes of Kim Kardashian, that Jersey Shores girl are low end trash, but both types make a ton of money on 2 different medium - the former in big screen, the latter on fake "Reality TV shows", and social media (where they get paid to promote crap).
I suppose if I press myself hard enough I have to admit that I just don't like what they are doing, and think it's a net negative to our culture, by my own standards.
There's always been lowbrow culture and pop culture -- so there's nothing essentially new here. But it seems like its ubiquity and popularity have reached new heights. "Seems" being the operative word, one could argue. I think it's really really hard to disentangle surface generational changes from true long-term shifts in major cultural values. Old man syndrome is mistaking the former for the latter. But there's also the opposite syndrome -- which is to insist that the latter doesn't even exist.
Funny for a book that's so rooted in tribes and tribalism that Stephenson didn't go with the classic cultural castes.
Roughly: Labourer, farmer, gatherer (forestry, fishes, herds, hunting), trades & crafts, merchant, warrior, priest (now includes teaching and science, also, arguably, storytellers), rulers. I get about eight out of that, off the top of my head.
Five of those are "things" (the first set). There's a case which might be made for priests and rulers as entertainment / storytelling, but I don't think I could put warriors there.
Which is an interesting omission given the Colonel's role in the story -- clearly Warrior. (Though also, given his media screens, very much taken with Story. Hrm....)
Kim Kardashian's ethnicity is highly relevant as well. Hollywood is a very white place. There really aren't all that many opportunities for black character actresses. Or for people who want a black star to look up to. Kim fills that gap in the market.
And remember, the Kardashians became celebrities at the OJ Simpson trial :)
? Not sure what you mean. She isn't black.
Do you mean because Kanye is on there?
A reality TV show about making a reality TV show.
With The Garry Shandling Show, Entourage, political campaigns (and their documentaries), social influencers, paid placement, Spinal Tap...
Everything's so meta now, I can barely discern fact from fiction.
"All the world's a stage." -- Shakespeare
A success recipe right here.
Just like how the only bloggers who got rich in the early 2000s were the ones who were blogging about "How to get rich blogging".
The majority of "stars" are known for their big budget blockbusters. I'm not saying that playing Iron Man or Ethan Hunt is easy, but it's definitely not as hard as playing a difficult character actor role.
I don't particularly care for Howard Stern's style of entertainment as an example. Tens of millions of people in the US over the last several decades, have, however. He's an extraordinary entertainer. Ryan Seacrest falls under that same brush.
The other thing these people have in common, they've all regularly made smart business decisions, another skill they share.
My mother's a 2nd grade teacher and does the usual "what do you want to be when you grow up?" bit each year. The last couple years she's had a very significant number of her students say "YouTube or Instagram star" instead of the usual firefighter/police officer/doctor/soldier/etc. (Also not the most disturbing trend to come from her recent batch(es) of kids.)
I'm really glad our country is at place where being funny on a social media website is enough to make a good living, but I can't help but feel there's something missing—something keeping them grounded.
I get that boomers and Gen Xers are vain—I love to rag on them, and, really, we all are vain to some extent—but millennials and Gen Z seem to be taking it to a different level.
Like the grown men dressing up as Elsa from Frozen and Spiderman and recording two minutes of weird sounds, just because they figured out why the analytics said 35 year old women watched that, while the marketers couldn't figure out that it meant their kids were seeing it on internet connected toys that happened to play youtube videos.
Anyone can do it, for now.
What on earth does lower-middle class celebrity mean here? Where does the alleged class difference come from?
There are many valid criticisms of YouTube/IG stars, but is Michelle Phan really lower-middle class compared to say Nicki Minaj?! Because lots of the private-school mums I know are more than happy to watch Michelle Phan with their daughters but ban Nicki Minaj.
In the past being a profitable artist meant superstardom or poverty, with a rare few in between with middle class incomes. Now with Youtube/patreon, there is a good chunk of 'middle class artists' that are developing today that didn't exist in the numbers that these platforms created.
-- Some Greek Guy, like really long time ago.
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehaving-childre...
When I was growing up, lots of people wanted to be Movie/TV stars. I think YouTube stardom has lowered the barrier to making being vapid a carrier choice.
Basically, I see the "YouTube biz" as being much like stand-up comedy, but without the travelling.
To this, though
> Is wanting to be a YouTube channel host really a marker of vanity?
I'd say it's a good indicator. Not every channel will be like https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4mLlRa_dezwvytudo9s1sw or https://www.youtube.com/user/TheBackyardScientist with funny or informative skits.
Sometimes I'll open the 'search' part of Instagram and just scroll through the posts and wonder how so many people have their own brands when all the do is post selfies. I'd totally do it if I could. But it's definitely vanity.
This seems like the root of your issue.
> But it's definitely vanity.
The only people to use vanity as an insult are people who have nothing to be vain about.
Do you cover your grays? Do you wear flattering clothes? Do you buy nice phones? Why bother? It's all vain shit.
The property under scrutiny by the parent poster, though, is (I think) more like "narcissism"—the desire to be perceived as the best person ever by as many people as possible.
The desire for dignity is universal; whereas narcissism is a (rather uncommon) personality flaw.
Weird. I thought dignity is self-respect(not respect from others).
So do you have a list of what earns you dignity vs what is narcissism? Like covering your gut in loose clothing is fine but god forbid you post your abs on insta where only people who see it are people who willingly followed you to see it and the people who went on to explore tab to see it and then jumped on hn to whine about it.
> the desire to be perceived as the best person ever by as many people as possible.
I don't know - sounds like ambition to me.
Insta has given aspiring models a mostly democratic platform. You don't have to be a size zero or white or what have you. Build your reach and you are a model. Same goes for youtube - it has vastly empowered indie content creators. Of course there are millions of people who post their photos seeking validation from friends and strangers but what of it? Humans have been seeking validation from strangers since time immemorial otherwise why have lavish weddings or expensive wedding rings or expensive cars...
IMO people complaining over overt insta sharing are self-righteous whiners. I see it on the same level as being outraged over Rebecca Black. Don't like it, don't seek it. You think you are better than others? Don't tell, go actually be better.
but what has it to do with dignity? And why would anyone need a "list"?
> Don't like it, don't seek it.
I can be aware of something and have an opinion about it without engaging in it. And I surely do not need your permission for that, and calling anything negative you don't like "complaining" without considering your own complaints as just silly.
> Build your reach and you are a model. Same goes for youtube - it has vastly empowered indie content creators.
Don't even need to go into models, they are there to sell product, but I'll just say that calling people "content creators" is like calling someone who is attacked as maybe not being such an earnest author a "page filler". That's the low we sunk to, that's already normalized. "Creating content" has as much "value" as people give it in form of "attention". The capitalism of the mind, the destruction of all information. Work 50 years, rob someone who worked 50 years, you can buy the exact same thing... get X views doing A, or X views doing B, it's still just X views.
I guess I should make a youtube video about it, then it'd be valid even if it called out other youtubers? Help me out here, since apparently typing a comment in a text box is not creating content if it rubs you the wrong way.
> Humans have been seeking validation from strangers since time immemorial
Yes, but that doesn't make it less dysfunctional, and others have been calling them out for being fucked in the head for just as long. The idea kinda is that you do not constantly "seek validation", but you already more or less have that figured out after a while, and then it's more about responsibilities and challenges and things you enjoy. And yes, it's fun to be liked. Just like it's fun to like people. But if validation and self-esteem are some kind of elusive fix you constantly have to seek, you're doing it wrong.
Last but not least: You're basically saying, if you found a bug, don't talk about it, fix your own copy and just use that. Fuck that. What would you know about ambition? What if my being better includes speaking my mind? Riddle me that.
Conversations have context, you know. Parent poster mentioned dignity being different. Did you not read the or are you intentionally clipping it.
> "Creating content" has as much "value" as people give it in form of "attention"
Is..is that supposed to be an insult or some deep insight you stumbled onto? I don't understand why you are stating the obvious with such conviction and quotes.
> Work 50 years, rob someone who worked 50 years, you can buy the exact same thing... get X views doing A, or X views doing B, it's still just X views.
You are kinda going off the rails here buddy.
> I guess I should make a youtube video about it, then it'd be valid even if it called out other youtubers? Help me out here, since apparently typing a comment in a text box is not creating content if it rubs you the wrong way.
Cool. Now you are making up arguments on my behalf and posting your retorts.
> You're basically saying, if you found a bug, don't talk about it, fix your own copy and just use that.
That doesn't even come close to being an analogy.
> What would you know about ambition?
I can explain that to you. Or you can go back and read the conversation again, slowly.
> What if my being better includes speaking my mind? Riddle me that.
Maybe try to be actually ambitious rather than being content with raging over people doing better than you.
No, I got that. And then I asked, why would one need a "list of activities" to make that point? I don't see how that would work, seeing how those activities also have contexts and motivations which matter. It's like "taking bread from a place and putting it somewhere else" can be various things like making breakfast, stealing food, giving food, playing with food.
> You are kinda going off the rails here buddy.
Off what rails? Your comment was an own goal, I'm just beating a dead horse.
> Maybe try to be actually ambitious rather than being content with raging over people doing better than you.
It's more mocking people who I consider lame. Which brings us back to your projected "Now you are making up arguments on my behalf and posting your retorts." haha.
All right. I will give it a last try. You would need a "list" if you are the one making a point that hiding your gut is just dignity while posting your abs online is narcissism. I was pointing out to parent poster that this point is not conducive as your are defining dignity and narcissism to suit your point of view. I don't understand how you missed it when it's written verbatim in the comment you replied to.
> Your comment was an own goal, I'm just beating a dead horse.
And here we go again. You think of something and put it down in your comment irrespective of context. What dead horse are you beating and why does this phrase make an appearance out of blue here?
> It's more mocking people who I consider lame.
At least we have the same agenda here. I too enjoy mocking bottom feeders who write diatribes out of their jealousy for people leading a better and more fulfilled lives than them.
> Which brings us back to your projected "Now you are making up arguments on my behalf and posting your retorts." haha.
Again, I am sure you think you have a point here and I am supposed to have an epiphany when I grok it, but honestly, all I see is random sentences chained together. I once saw a video of some pastor who brought a rock to a talk show as an irrefutable proof against evolution. I am kinda feeling the same as the talk host felt.
Cool man. You do you. Continue "caring for others" by, uh, posting comments on hn I suppose, and "being better", uh, again by posting comments on hn.
I'd do lots of things if I could, but I don't rag on all of them.
I am the opposite of "glad" about this. It's highly concerning to me. My sister is also a school teacher and her students are just 4th graders and see this as legitimate life goals. Think of how that forms the development of a young child.
It depends.
Option 1:
"Hey buddy. So you want to be a youtube star. Which ones you like? The funny ones? The lifters? The fashion vloggers? It's actually a lot of work. You will need a script, a cameraman, a director, actors etc. And all said and done, for every youtube star, there are tens of thousands who just toil in obscurity. But that's a risk which comes with a lot of life's decisions and you can decide later on if you really want to do it or if you want to do it part time.
Back to the production process. It's not very different from what we do in our school's theater except that there is a massive potential increase in your reach. Why don't you try coming up with a concept and I can walk you through the iterations it takes for the final product. We can even try to schedule a screening for the class and put it on youtube."
Option 2:
"Youtube star? SMH. What has become of today's generation?"
Well at least it is a goal.
When I was in secondary school in the UK ( mid-1980s ) career guidance was just being introduced as a concept. I think it was a couple of half-hour sessions one year and then being left with a folder of job descriptions.
So most of us in my year left school and picked a university course without having any career goal or aspiration. I am mid-40s now and still don't know what I want to do but unfortunately it is too late for many opportunities.
I have a good friend who was the school sports champion and even she just fell into an unrelated career by accident.
If kids today want to be YouTube stars then that's great, hopefully it will give them an objective and a reason to study particular subjects instead of "the teacher seems nice" or "I need to pick one subject from that category"
Does your mother moralise her second graders' choices like this? (I'd guess not.) The number of people helped or even saved by movement leaders or other cultural icons can easily exceed the contributions of the public sector roles you described. I don't see why "Instagram star" is that different from "movie star" or "astronaut" for that matter. (It certainly seems better than "football player.")
They apparently provide value to someone, because they make millions of dollars.
I would be careful with that kind of reasoning.
I don't think making millions of dollars is the definition of producing value.
To be fair, I'd rather be a youtube star than a professional murderer, too.
Expectations of livable pay from those jobs? Favourable media presentation of them?
Is it vanity or just adapting to the new economy?
I don't know if that statement holds beyond the last 100 years, but certainly it does till then. I would chalk it up to being the result of the communications expansion, with each year our audience increases (by virtue of our increasing ability to travel the world, and by the ever expanding internet), and with that expanding audience comes a desire for us to be liked by the greatest number of them, which involves out-competing everyone else.
The only "valid" (imo) complaint in this comic is in 1905:
>"The profession of letters is so little understood"
I wish the humanities played a larger role in our engineered society. I see a lot of technical people who've never read Popper (which is relevant to technical fields) or any other philosopher (which are always good reading, or at least interesting).
The OP is asking, what will happen when a generation of human are indulged in useless idols.
Then you continue to describe an industry out of useless idols and their fans...
Hack, I am not surprised by this type of apparently startlingly myopic vision of human society. It seems everything is just for profit. No matter how stupid the thing is, if there is a chance for profit, then go for it.
In the end, who can answer the simple question: Who create the value to drive the profit?
Buy an ad and your customer might remember it. Create a meme and you live forever.
There is a reason Bollywood is a more profitable "industry" than Hollywood, and it's not because their product is better. It's because their society actually nets a profit from production that they can then spend on leisure.
If our best and brightest young children become internet celebrities because it made good sense, then there won't be anyone to keep the gears grinding.
Worse than that, on instagram you're still the product being sold even when you're then one being followed.
Whether you like it or not, entertainers produce goods or entertainment-related services within an economy. That's the definition of an industry.
So do you also support not educating a vast majority of children because if everyone aspires to be a white collar worker, where will we get our janitors and garbage men from.
and when i say "your generation" i don't even know which "generation" you are. it doesn't matter since most likely there's been a negative article written about your age group regardless of how old you actually are.
I'm 30 myself and I find a lot about my parents' generations to be good and naturally a lot bad things as well.
Now I'm frequently really tired of my generation (Gen Y, I guess) and, surprisingly, find recently that I'm really hopeful about Gen Z. They're like more polished version of us. Maybe it's an effect of growing up in post-financial-crisis world.
It just feels natural if all you know is how to act like a 14 year old and haven't been 30 yet to see how weird it looks from the other side of the table.
Who were the "idols who don't contribute anything to society" up until the 1940s when "teenagers" were invented? In the grand scheme of things this is still a very recent phenomenon.
Horace, 20 BC
Also, assuming that any generation can't be worse in some ways than others isn't useful.
https://www.si.com/vault/2001/02/15/299128/sudden-death-glad...
But so so so many kids destroy their lives chasing popularity. Looks like more and more kids will learn it the hard way.
/get off my lawn
Just like those geezers in The Clash complained about 'phoney beatle mania'
Just like all other mediums of popular media.
I feel internet fame is more fulfilling than being a nobody slaving in a 9-5 job. And there is also easy endorsement money which comes with the fame.
But most people see work as a means to a more fulfilling end.
"I am so much better than insta influencers because, uh, I have a job? I don't seek validation from strangers? I am not sure but I sure know that they are the downfall of the humanity"
No, I think you have a point.