RIM on Apple's claims of Blackberry Bold signal loss | Hacker News Reader

RIM on Apple's claims of Blackberry Bold signal loss

crackberry.com

77 pointsajg197771 comments

If the antenna is internal (and invisible) how many would even realise they were affecting it in any way? Apple drew a lot of attention to its antenna, both in terms of design and marketing, so how many people reported problems after deliberately trying to screw with it?

I just made my iPhone 3GS, Blackberry 9700 and Nokia N97 all drop a couple of bars by covering their internal antennas with my palm. I expect this to happen with any phone.

The point is that you can have the same effect on an iPhone 4 with your pinky.

That hasn't been easy to reproduce though. Some people, in some places, but not like the "death grip".

Looks easy to me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgouzUMlQpY

That's one person in one place. It's not easy to reproduce for a lot of people.

Though the ease of producing the problem on the iPhone 4 is very real, this argument annoys me:

No one touches their pinky over that line in normal use. Does it cause a problem? Yes. Does anyone just sit there with one finger on the side of the phone? No.

Instead, say that a grip natural to a large number of users causes signal loss.

What? I don't have an iPhone 4 but the way I hold my phone, all of my fingers are on the left side of it. I would touch the "spot of death" every time I made a call.

I do touch the line with my pinky in normal use all the time. Maybe I have an abnormally shaped hand, I don't know. That being said, I love my new iPhone 4, I'm a new convert from Android and I don't really have reception problems.

That's legitimate, but the problem isn't "your pinky touches the line" its "my grip (and it's not an odd grip) causes my pinky to touch the line".

People making videos of an iPhone on a table, and one finger coming up and touching it are alarmist ways of treating the problem. Not that its not a very serious real problem, but let's be reasonable and only talk about the issues it has when we're actually using it.

I think you've missed the point.

With the iPhone 4, it's possible to reproduce this issue by holding the phone in a very natural way. The fact that other phones also lose reception but only if you hold them in a special way clearly isn't a problem - if it were it would have created a big stink.

And if you think people are deliberately making a big production out of this to screw with Apple, then why wasn't it done with earlier models of the iPhone?

Ugh. We know it's easy to intentionally reproduce the problem. But the only data anyone has suggests that, in practice, it doesn't seem to be affecting people much, just like I'm sure deathgrips aren't affecting BB users much. Can we move on from Antennagate now? Maybe talk about Erlang instead?

I dropped a ton of calls before getting a case. That being said the real scandal here has zero to do with the antenna and everything to do with Steve Jobs ham handed response. If they just owned up we wouldn't be tAlking about it as the fix is pretty simple and effective. I suspect jobs didn't because he saw the antenna as a feature instead of a bug.

It was just pointed out that the data show that this problem is affecting a vanishingly small proportion of users in practice. Your counterpoint is an anecdotal pronouncement that it happens to you. That’s great—but it still doesn’t happen for most people. If we’re peddling in anecdotes, then for the record in the three weeks I’ve been using my iPhone 4 I have been completely unable to reproduce the antenna problem on mine in any way, shape, or form: it simply doesn’t happen. Takeaway: anecdotes are nearly completely worthless to be throwing around.

I find it interesting in that the responses from HTC, BB and Nokia, none of them deny the problems that Steve highlighted with their phones. None of them have come out and called him a liar, they are just upset that they are being caught up in this antenna saga.

Ask the average iPhone 4 user: would you rather have the new antenna design, which generally considerably outperforms the old design (not to mention all the side benefits such as making the device so thin and strong), or would you like a design like the 3GS back, which outperforms the 4 in one specific circumstance that doesn't seem to affect most people in real usage?

Something this whole sordid saga has made me appreciate is that the 3GS is really a damned awesome phone. It feels good in my hand, it can run IOS 4 without slowing to a crawl, its proximity sensor works well, and it doesn't tend to drop calls or not drop calls based on how it's held. It was designed before Apple got complacent, and it shows.

My SO has an original 3G model and it feels a lot slower, even without upgrading to IOS 4. I was going to upgrade both our phones when the iPhone 4 was first announced, but I failed to get our pre-orders in on time, and now I'm sort of glad -- especially since I'm not the one stuck with the slower 3G. :)

Did you notice RIM didn't deny it?

I can't reproduce it on my bb curve 9800

point?

<sorry, inside joke to one of grandalf other comments>

Hah. Well, I followed the procedure blackberry that I read causes the bars to decrease in the iphone 4. There was no decrease whatsoever.

Do you understand that this is related not just to how you hold the phone, but where you are and what reception you are getting. There are plenty of people (most?) that can not produce this on the iphones either.

I wasn't attempting to insinuate that all iPhone 4G's are easy to trigger this in, but I wanted to defend Blackberry from the unfair attack by Apple. I have had a few Blackberries and none have ever had any noticeable hand position related signal loss across a variety of signal strength and location environments.

How is this an unfair attack? It is not an attack at all, it is simple physics. All phones have this problem, the media are focusing on just one phone, because it is more newsworthy. Apple are saying it is a problem with most phones out there, the iPhone is no different. You really see that as an attack.

Glad someone else actually bothered to notice ANY of the relevant facts. RIM quite obviously did not address the factual allegation that Apple made. They just blustered a lot. That's telling.

"Apple's attempt to draw RIM into Apple's self-made debacle is unacceptable. Apple's claims about RIM products appear to be deliberate attempts to distort the public's understanding of an antenna design issue and to deflect attention from Apple's difficult situation. RIM is a global leader in antenna design and has been successfully designing industry-leading wireless data products with efficient and effective radio performance for over 20 years. During that time, RIM has avoided designs like the one Apple used in the iPhone 4 and instead has used innovative designs which reduce the risk for dropped calls, especially in areas of lower coverage. One thing is for certain, RIM's customers don't need to use a case for their BlackBerry smartphone to maintain proper connectivity. Apple clearly made certain design decisions and it should take responsibility for these decisions rather than trying to draw RIM and others into a situation that relates specifically to Apple."

- Mike Lazaridis and Jim Balsillie

I wish they would post actual measurements, as in Anandtech analysis articles. A video is nice, but are there any dB measurements out there?

Crackberry's call for duplication

Apple's test? Go to an area where you have full bars while holding the phone gingerly, then change that loose grip to a bit more of a death grip.

is flawed given that "full bars" can indicate an arbitrarily strong signal. In order to see the effect Apple demonstrated you will most likely need to be in a location where you just barely have "full bars".

Why are we linking to a website that either doesn't understand the how the "bars" work on phone or is only trying to add misinformation the discussion?

The statement itself was issued by RIM. I'm pretty sure they know a thing or two about bars and antenna design.

They do know and they do have a problem but they didn't address the topic. They deflected the attenuation problem with the Bold and parried by putting the emphasis back on Apple's design. That is how PR works.

I too am pretty sure RIM knows about about antenna design which is why they didn't deny Apple's claim that many, including their own, smart phones are subject to a grip of death. crackberry (which is what the OP linked to) however insinuate (through their flawed survey) that it wasn't.

I could not make my bb curve lose any bars from gripping, holding, etc. I tried very hard...

Just like there are people not being able to reproduce the problem on their iPhone 4.

Point?

The point is the single data point you are providing. Finding iPhone 4 users with this same data point of not having a problem point to the fact the you entirely missed the point.

I thought that with any iphone 4 in all but the strongest signal areas it was possible to cause a decrease in measured signal by doing the death grip.

So every telephone can get signal attenuation if you hold it in a certain fashion in certain reception conditions. That sounds plausible, although I never experienced the problem with my bb bold, I'm ready to accept this problem can be reproduced.

That's not the issue at hand. The issue with the iPhone 4 is that it's very easy to drop calls and get signal attenuation. The reports are too numerous to be just a sporadic problem. Whether this is a problem in the manufacturing process (which would explain why not all telephones have the problem) or the design, only Apple knows.

At first they say there is no antenna problem. Then they say it's a bug in the software. Now they say "well all phones have this problem".

I think inspector Columbo would say "Aahh! Of course, all phones have the problem... Now Mr. Jobs, just one more thing..."

First. If the problem is as widespread as you think, how do you reconcile that with AT&T's dropped calls statistics that show that it drops less than 1% more calls than the iPhone 3GS?

Second. How do you reconcile it with AnandTech's tests that show that the iPhone 4 is better at keeping calls even with a poor signal?

It is one or less percent unit more, which means that if the 3GS drop rates are 1%, the 4 has drop rate of 2% which is 100% more dropped calls.

I made some research on this and found http://arxiv.org/pdf/physics/0210022 which says basically that drop rates among 720 different carriers have a lognormal distribution with mean of about 2.4%.

iPhone 4 might have better RF and baseband chain to compensate, but it's clearly not enough when the phone seems to lose the signal altogether.

Edit: Jobs said clearly that the 4 drops ~1 calls more per 100 than the 3GS. 1 per 100 -> 2 per 100.

Yeah felt that apple was being a little sneaky with how they were putting out the data. Lets assume that 0.1 calls per hundreds was lost on the 3gs, then 1 more is a huge difference, if the 3gs dropped 3 calls than it's still huge but not as huge so without the 3gs drops per hundreds how do we know wtf 1 more means?

1 more is still a ton, an average user probably does more than 100 calls per month so... that's a drop call per month and for people in shitty area that could be multiple a week on the high end (some people never drop calls on the iPhone)

Exactly, in some areas dropped call rates could be as low as one per thousand. Adding one per hundred to this would lead in tenfold increase in dropped calls.

Well, the area where the user uses their phone obviously affects both the iPhone 3GS as well as 4. So if a user has 1/100th the number of call drops on the 3GS, they will see a smaller increase with the iPhone 4, i.e. less than one percentage point. The “average joe” user will experience the increase given by Jobs. And finally, those who drop several calls a day with the 3GS will likely have returned their iPhone 4 already.

Unfortunately, you're misunderstanding what Jobs said. They said it drops ~1 call per hundred than the 3GS, not 1 percentage point more. That's a huge difference. It means that if the 3GS drops 1% of calls, the iPhone 4 drops 1.01% of calls.

It looks like lots of people just read live blogs and second hand accounts. It's shocking to see how easily and quickly the facts get mutated these days.

Just to show I'm somewhat unbiased on the issue -- if we want to question Apple's data why did they show AT&T store returns and not Apple Store returns?

You lost me. AT&T's data, according to Jobs, suggests the iPhone 4 drops one additional call per hundred when compared to the 3GS.

"It means that if the 3GS drops 1% of calls, the iPhone 4 drops 1.01% of calls."

"If the 3GS drops 1% of calls", it drops one call per hundred.

That means the iPhone 4 drops two calls per hundred, or 2% of one hundred calls. Not 1.01%.

What? I don't really get my head around your math or I just misunderstand what you are trying to say. 1 call per 100 calls means one percentage point.

Jobs said: "One or less additional dropped call per hundred calls". I don't know how I should parse this to be "one percent more dropped calls than 3GS".

Actually I believe Geee is correct and YOU are misunderstanding Jobs. Here's the actual quote: "...iPhone 4 drops more calls than the 3GS. But how many more calls per hundred does it drop?...The iPhone 4 drops less than ONE call per hundred than the 3GS.” To me this reads clearly that were one to make 100 calls on each device, the iPhone 4 would drop between 0 and 1 more calls than the 3gs which is consistent with Geee's interpretation.

It also may be significant that many people who own an iPhone 4 are deliberately "testing" it and trying to attenuate the signal. That's the first thing I did after turning on mine. With the 3GS, most people weren't aware for how to attenuate the signal and weren't trying to. In my opinion, that "testing" alone could account for the increase in iPhone 4 dropped call rate.

My BB Bold 900 looses a bar or two if I cover it in a way that it would be impossible for me to make calls then. Never had any issues with it, never drooped a call. But to be fair, I'm in Slovenia in Mobitel's network which is one of (if not) the best in the world. So maybe all this problems come from crappy network services too.

Jobs clearly stated that the demo of bars being dropped on other brands of phones was done in an area of bad network reception. If people try the death grip with good network reception they won't see any drop in bars. As I understand, this is the same for the iPhone 4.

In the real world, sometimes there is bad network reception. Then there are people who can still make calls in that area, and people who can't.

Yes, but that might account for why this guy isn't able to reproduce the bar drop.

Does putting the magical and revolutionary attenuation-solving Apple bumper onto a Blackberry Bold help? :)

I tried apples test on my phone and no go.

I tried it on the 3GS with the antenna inside. It loses bars.

They should sue Apple for false claims.

and libel, there is clear intent to damage RIM's brand name and profitability. Steve is a dirty bird like that.

Huh? Were I to find out that Big Mac is people I would tell the press with the clear intent to damage McDonald’s brand name and profitability. Is that also libel? I would hope, anyway, that true claims are never libel.

In the US, truth is usually considered a defense against claims of libel. Not so elsewhere, such as the UK, if I recall correctly. (IANAL)

I would at least hope there's a legal difference between true-and-in-the-public-interest claims like "Big Macs are made of people" and true-but-scurrilous claims like "<closeted gay celebrity> has gay threesomes with rent boys".

It isn't false. RIM didn't deny it loses bars when held a certain way. They were just pissed that that Apple showed it to be true. Apple did show it to be true so there is no false claim.

They are really comparing apples to oranges in the sense that they didn't talk about the iPhone's design flaw, just RF shadowing which is obvious.

There isn't any phone other than iPhone that loses the signal altogether by just touching one point on the phone.

> There isn't any phone other than iPhone that loses the signal altogether by just touching one point on the phone.

Perhaps, but I'm not entirely convinced that is true. It may be, but it may also be true that other phones do have a one point weakness which isn't marked by a visual cue. It's just that no one has tested a large selection of phones to locate that one point.

Of course, I'm not sure why it matters whether a pinky can drop dB ... you can't hold a phone with just 1 finger touching the side. This is just as much of an issue as arguing all phones have a major weakness because they drop dB when wrapped in aluminum foil.

Did Apple even attempt to provide evidence of the Blackberry having a similar problem?

They showed a video of a Blackberry that, when gripped, looses bars [+]. If they wanted to really convince me they would have to show me better measurements but I would say that’s evidence, isn’t it?

[+] You can scroll down and watch it yourself: http://www.apple.com/antenna/

Wow. Those videos are powerfully convincing that Apple has handled this whole media frenzy in a perfectly reasonable fashion. The only real criticism here is to say that when the media is wrong, and you know you are right, telling them to shove it is not exactly the most skillful way of spinning the situation.

A lot of people now vaguely have an impression that the iPhone 4 has spotty reception. That impression will last much longer than if Apple had attacked immediately with these videos instead of "there is no problem".

But keep it all in perspective eh?

Just yesterday on the beach a friend was snapping a photo of the sunset with his iPhone 4, saying wow this thing really takes great photos. He also mentioned being concerned about the antenna issue. Yet he was oggling it like it was a jewel. Others present bemoaned not having had the foresight to pre-order.

Later in the afternoon another friend was wandering around ranting "where is my iPhone 4!" in increasingly loud and frantic tones, until finally he found it and was reunited with his precious.

They showed a video of the Bold 9700 having a death grip issue which probably also effects very few people in real world usage. (13% of 9700 owners based on this site's poll)

I have a Bold 9700 and have never had a problem of this kind.

I have a Bold 9700 and the wifey has an iphone.

I get much better reception than her in bad areas. I also get much better reception and network switching while travelling.

I have an iPhone 4, live in terrible coverage, when this blew up took it out of the bumper for past two weeks, and can't drop a call even in places my 3GS and Blackberry Pearl couldn't make calls at all... And so?

Bandwagons roll on squeaky wheels.

That's the thing: if you try, and hold it at the right place, you probably could have a problem. (In the right location and network situation.) In practice, you most likely don't — or, you do rarely have the problem, but don't trace it to that cause, just as the vast majority of network problems on phones aren't traced to their cause: people just try the call again.

The same is true of the iPhone 4. It's just easy to find the exact place where it happens on the iPhone because it's basically marked.

I wonder what percent of those users have a 9700.

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