Hacker News Reader

Comment by pc86 | Hacker News Reader

Assuming your blog is technical, this would have been a good chance to get some more traffic by at least mentioning the actual domain, linking to the github repo, or having one or both of those in your profile.

Edit: Not sure why this has been met with a stream of downvotes. Is there something wrong with saying "I use a different approach to publish this blog: [link]," especially if it's technical and would be of interest to HN anyway? I see many people do it constantly, even when it's not relevant to the article or discussion at hand.

Edit 2: I don't generally care where a post is but this went from -2 to +6 pretty quickly. Weird?

View on HN

"Edit 2: I don't generally care where a post is but this went from -2 to +6 pretty quickly. Weird?"

Probably I can answer that :) I noticed that when one of my posts get down voted even when having a neutral comment, it swings back to positive fast when touching -1 or -2. I guess that the gray comment takes a while for HN'ers to notice as down voted. And when they find that there is nothing wrong with it or they actually like it, many people simultaneously click the upvote swinging it back wildly to positive zone. It is HN's own version of 'universe making right what it deems as correct' :D

That is probably it. I sometimes underestimate just how many people are looking at any given thread simultaneously.

I think we need to clarify what a down vote is... My assumption was it was to flag something mean or off topic. Now People seem to use it to say "I disagree with your opinion but am too lazy to express my own".

Ask HN: Why has the downvoting timelimit been reduced? | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12330029 (Aug 2016)

TL;DR: I think it would be a big mistake to [...] outlaw downvoting for disagreement - dang (HN mod)

Yeah pg agrees with that. In the early days downvoting for disagreement was discouraged among the heavier users, but things change.

"Defensive upvoting," you might call it. I've certainly done it.

I've also seen many of my own comments go up and down quite a lot as the upvoters & downvoters battle it out. (Eventually they tend to settle on a solid "meh.")

How do you down vote on HN?

There is a karma threshold before you can see the down vote arrow (underneath the up vote arrow). It was 200 when I got it, it may be up to 500 by now? I don't think they publish the number.

I'm between 200 and 300 and can't downvote, so they seem to have increased the threshold.

Right, that's why I recently started checking people's profiles before posting a dissenting reply, and not making the reply if they've enough karma to downvote me.

You can't down vote direct replies.

If you care deeply enough about fake internet points to go to that much trouble, IMHO, you're doing it wrong.

Are you feeling picked-on because of what you're saying, or how you're saying it?

I, for example, speak english as second language, and frequently a comment of mine is read more aggressively than I meant it, so it ends up at -10 or worse, even when being factually correct.

So I’m reducing my activity on HN in general as far as possible, and only post as uncontroversial opinions as possible, because I fear that going against the established opinion would just get me downvoted again.

> frequently a comment of mine is read more aggressively than I meant it

This is a common occurrence. Written communication involves both the writer and the reader(s), and unfortunately that results in losing other channels of communication such as intonation and body language. I think written communication is a skill that can be improved with purposeful practice if you think it's worth your time (and to be fair, whether or not one considers posting on HN personally valuable is not a given :).

It sounds like it's at least a little important to you. I personally think the effort is worthwhile in general, as it's useful to know how one comes across in various media, and particularly if you feel you have something valuable to contribute.

I've got a few resources in my profile that I find useful to return to—and have, repeatedly done so to deepen my internalization of them. I'd encourage you to take a look and see if they might be useful to you as well.

Edit to add: I hadn't read this entire thread before responding. 'mikekchar has captured a lot of what I also think about in their comment here:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15234749

For example look at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15231085

Where is the reason that ever of my comments in that comment chain was originally voted to -4?

I jist don't get it. It's not attacking anyone, providing additional information about the parent comment, and factually correct (as another user even provides a cdc source later on)

Dangerous territory, here :) To be very clear, this is my speculation on what's going on in other people's minds. It can be useful to think about (as it's an exercise in empathy) but often dangerous to explicitly list everything publicly, as one has to evaluate charitable and uncharitable readings, and in general expressing the uncharitable ones, while realistic, tend to draw the most attention (it's just human nature), and in effective communication one should strive to act on the charitable interpretations while seeking to avoid the uncharitable ones. So, please be gentle ;)

The primary issue I see here is that it's an iPhone thread on the day of an announcement. Emotions are going to be even higher than normal and I always take extra care when entering such waters. I remind myself that effective communication takes two parties, and this particular ground is already seeded with land mines.

Questions I'd ask myself, even of facts:

Is this worth saying? Does it add to the discussion? How much does it add to the discussion even if I am able to couch it in the best possible way? Am I correcting someone? How do people react to correction, even if I'm right? What is the reaction to the least charitable reading of what I'm posting? Am I on topic (both in the subthread and the submission)?

Putting on my most uncharitable hat here, I'd say this subthread starting with 'xvolter's comment was doomed from the start.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15230968

It can be read as nitpicky, needlessly negative, and incendiary (likely to evoke a strong, defensive emotional response). The lead-in "Are they aware" can be read as very condescending. I haven't read up on the iPhone release, but I suspect Apple used the phrase "surgical steel" to describe some component of the iPhone. To take them to task for that is pedantic. It's marketing speak. You have to expect some level of exaggeration. Even if it's technically correct, what is this correction going to contribute to the thread on iPhone X? Is it likely to create constructive discussion? From what I've observed, some HN members will down-vote such comments and those in the subthread even if they're correct because it's not constructive to the overall discussion. And flame wars not only are destructive in their own thread, they tend to poison the entire forum as it promotes needless argumentation. Don't get me wrong: it's easy to get caught up in such a thread, thinking "Look, once I point out this, it'll be resolved. It's just a clarification. I'm just trying to help." I know, because I've been there.

Also note that even if this is not exactly what was going on in any one down-voter's head, it's useful in that it gets me thinking about how it might be received and generally how I can improve my comment—which might mean not commenting at all.

To put this even more personally, thoughts that have been going through my mind while composing this post:

- Gosh, this is getting long. I'd really like to tighten it up. Is it worth the effort? How much time should I take reviewing and editing it before posting? (After writing but before posting I'll be sure to review the entire comment, but I know I'm not going to tighten it up much because I'm tired.)

- What I've written can easily be misconstrued, particularly because I've written things that are uncharitable, even though I've put in the disclaimer that's what I'm doing on purpose as an exercise. It's late, and I know I haven't thought through everything or the entire thing very thoroughly. I know that in and of itself opens it up to misunderstanding. Are people going to misread what I've written because I've left something out? Is the possibility of that miscommunication greater than the value the post is contributing?

- I'm particularly concerned about my explicit, uncharitable reading of 'xvolter's comment and the response to the entire subthread. Is it necessary to include this for my comment as a whole to be effective? Can I write the comment while excluding it? How much time would that take? I'm leaving it in because I think it is useful and on balance, really, what does it matter in this single instance? (But it does matter, on some level. It's a reflection on me.)

I'll end up clicking "reply" because I think you've put yourself out there and sound like you're sincerely looking to improve your writing, and that's worth the effort. I also think that it's clear that my intent is clear and good, and I'm know I myself am still learning: if there's some negative reaction to this, I'll take that and use it to improve my writing next time. I certainly know I've got more to learn :)

In sum: it's a volatile submission, it's an off-topic subthread, and getting involved is fraught with danger.

Wow. Did I really need all of those words if that short summary is all there is to it?

> Are you feeling picked-on because of what you're saying, or how you're saying it?

That's impossible to answer without telepathy.

(Aside from topics that generate lots of discussion that weighs one particular way, I find it impossible to determine a priori whether a particular viewpoint is controversial on HN. For instance I have recently and wrongly predicted that transhumanism would be uncontroversial; and while I've noted this as evidence for future predictions, I am unable to explain it logically.)

I often use HN to practice writing. Good writing resonates with people. A post that is well thought out, well researched, communicates clearly and doesn't assume anything of the reader will often get up votes in my experience.

For me, the vast majority of down votes come from me being wrong (that is, I post something that I think is correct; I get down votes; I do more research and discover that I am, indeed, incorrect). In fact, this is such a good flag for my writing that when I get a down vote I immediately assume I must have made a mistake somewhere and start looking for it.

The next most common source of down votes (for me) is being argumentative. If I get a down vote, but decide that I am correct, I often discover that the tone of my writing is derisive. In all honesty, I never intend to have this tone of writing, but I am human and sometimes (either through lack of writing skill, or by unconsciously being an ass) it happens. My guess is that the person I'm responding too gets pissed off and down votes me. This has led me to have a kind of rule to try very hard never to piss off the parent poster, even if I think they are wrong. If I can't think of a way to comment without pissing off the parent, I try not to post. As a huge bonus, this avoids me getting dragged into >90% of trolling efforts (a statistic that I made up).

The next most common cause of down votes for me is lack of coherency in the comment. Sometimes people simply don't understand what I'm saying. It is important to realise that as a writer, you can't assume the readers understand what you are thinking, so this is completely down to you. Trying to put yourself into the role of a random reader and figuring out what they might think when they read your post is hard. However, this is what being a good writer is about. Again, if I write a post and upon reviewing it, I don't think most people will understand, I don't submit it.

Related to the last point, there are lots of times where I have relatively unique ideas. Very frequently people will not know what to think about them because they have never really explored that way of thinking. If I write in a way that makes it clear that I assume that the reader will find what I'm saying is obvious, I will get down votes. In a way it's insulting to say something that is not mainstream and assume that others will instantly understand/agree. Sometimes, if I feel the idea is interesting, I'll still post, but I'll try to broach the subject gently/apologetically. People are doing me a favour by getting out of their comfort zone and considering a different way of thinking.

Finally, when I'm posting, I often pick someone to respond to and try my best to help them. If I am successful, I find that the post is usually highly regarded by many people, even though my focus is only on helping one person. YMMV!

> I often use HN to practice writing. ...

> The next most common source of down votes (for me) is being argumentative.

Interesting. The main thing that motivates me to comment here - other than when someone touches the surface of a topic that piques my curiosity - is when I see something that is either blatantly wrong, or seems to be missing an obvious piece of clarifying information.

(Examples of wrongness: C# is the best language one can learn, any random non-MBA-holder can be given a loan and expected to make a successful business of it, random 6-year-olds can understand CS, one person without political office can make a difference among our population of 300 million, etc.)

Well said. I've found this to be the case for me personally as well. It also reinforces for me that honest reflection can lead to better understanding (of others and how one comes across) and better communication. You've also underscored how productive communication is more than just laying out facts or correcting mistakes. How one does so strongly affects its effectiveness. And I generally feel happier as a result. In turn, writing when feeling happier results in better comments. A virtuous circle.

There are times when I feel I've done my best and the thread doesn't seem to be progressing well. When that happens I take even more time to see whether there's any way I could have approached it better, and restrain myself from having to put in the last word. Effective communication does take effort on the part of both parties. If I feel I've done my best and conclude it's not working, setting it aside is often better than persisting and possibly making the discussion worse.

> You've also underscored how productive communication is more than just laying out facts or correcting mistakes. How one does so strongly affects its effectiveness.

If someone can't understand a simple list of facts unless it's couched in ... literature-course fluff, I suppose it could be called? ... then that's their problem and they're accomplishing precious little by foisting it onto everyone else.

> And I generally feel happier as a result. In turn, writing when feeling happier results in better comments. A virtuous circle.

Interesting. I find that happiness tends to dull my wit, make me less observant, etc. While it's not unusual for me to recall a long-past conversation (from any medium) and suddenly formulate a much better response at some particular junction ... feeling happy or contented tends to increase the probability that a current conversation will result in this sort of after-the-fact second-guessing.

Effective communication is more than just transferring a simple list of facts. You're correct that communication takes two people. If my goal is have someone accept my point of view (and while it may seem counter-intuitive, that includes facts), I have to take into account how it will be received by my audience.

If they don't take it in the way I'm presenting it, it's my responsibility to evaluate if there's a better way I can present it. Upon reflection (and that can be short or long, depending on how important it is to me), I can reasonably decide it's not worth the effort or time to do so. I can also come to the conclusion that perhaps the audience isn't really open to listening to what I have to say. That said, laying all of that on the audience without reflection in my experience is a recipe for failure and frustration.

It's their failure, and one's own frustration is, at least, limited to downvotes-received.

I always feel insecure of my own opinions but I do support HN's no bs-approach or joking anyway. That's why I try to be anonymous on here but don't attack people, but seldomly blurt out what I initially think. I do get hurt by downvotes hahaha.

edit: I'm working on being able to handle being wrong... usually flip out, like WHAT!!! You disagree with me?! (Contrary to my initial point about no bs)

People can't downvote replies to their comments, regardless of their karma count. Also, downvoting doesn't spend karma.

You couldn't have been about to say something substantial and constructive if the mere worry of being downvoted once is enough to silence your voice.

> constructive

One cannot "construct" anything from a foundation that is so thoroughly wrong that it crumbles at the slightest touch.

Is it then so wrong to give that foundation a hardy poke, rather than making a vain attempt to "construct" something atop it?

Upvoted :) What about don't giving a fuck about scores!?

Ability-to-flag says otherwise. (I have recently been informed here that the downvoting feature is worthless even to those who can use it.)

I got mine when I surpassed 500 a few months ago.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com