Robert Boyle's Experimental Proof of the Possibility of the Resurrection
alexwraggemorley.wordpress.com
alexwraggemorley.wordpress.com
People (mostly highly educated upper class) started to rely more of their own thinking than dogma that lead to horrible religious wars, sectarian conflicts and widespread misery. Different forms of deism started to replace belief in bible interpreted by priests.
Once you transfer from from Catholicism everywhere to different forms of protestant beliefs, next natural question to ask is if protestants hold the truth. This leads to abstract philosophical thinking and critical deism or atheism.
> pretty poorly regarded these days.
Why is that ? Because it is a touchy subject ? That I can certainly understand
Well now I have a reasonablish explanation of the "real story" behind the myth, a deformed child is born to a king who rejects him, an unwilling bride is almost forced to marry him, and then Theseus sneaks in and stabs him. But someone else could come up with a fairly different "real story" for all of this based on what they picked and chose from. And neither of our stories would have any real proof, or provide any real insight in the lives of the ancient Greeks. The story itself does provide insight on what the people who told it thought about the world, what they thought was moral and immoral, heroic and cowardly etc. So the myth/religious text on it's own does have historical value.
I am the same here (and not even a Christian, just a curious observer). I think you went overboard in your accusations here
> I think the problem is you are picking and choosing what you think is true from a given text, and then offering up an explanation that you can neither prove nor falsify.
I would have to be informed enough in the first place to be able to pick and choose. Seems I have stirred up a hornets nest. Given the situation, I have no further intention to participate in the thread.
Regardless,
> offering up an explanation that you can neither prove nor falsify
this I will eagerly concede. I just did not realize my off-hand thinking aloud would be an object of such scrutiny. I should have known better.
I used the example of Jesus walking on water in another thread. A natural explanation might be it was a cold day and there was actually ice on the lake. Sure this is a possible explanation, but there is absolutely no evidence and no way to substantiate such a theory, and it is clear our closest sources did believe he walked on water. So from a historians standpoint the ice-explanation is useless.
Furthermore these natural explanations often are a bit naive since they take the stories at face values and just try to explain away the supernatural aspects. Isn't it actually more plausible the event s just a legend or myth rather than Jesus actually walked on ice?
As for the resurrection, which the "swoon theory" tries to explain naturally, be aware that the oldest known version of the oldest Gospels doesn't even feature a resurrected Jesus. Just an unidentified white-clad guy which says Jesus is resurrected. You don't really medical explanations for how this could come to happen.
You might just as well claim the event never happened at all and is just a legend - you cant prove that either, but it is just as believable (if not more).
1. If a Roman soldier let a capital prisoner escape, including by bungling a crucifixion, that soldier would be killed.
2. The Roman soldier didn't break Jesus's legs. So he was sure he was dead.
3. The eyewitness account says that blood and water flowed from Jesus's pierced heart, which means collapse of the lungs and death by suffocation.
4. The body was wound in sheets.
5. The turnabout in behavior by his disciples. Before, they were in hiding. Afterward, they died for saying that Jesus rose from the dead.
6. There were Roman guards at the tomb, again who would be put to death if they let the body be stolen.
7. How would a half-dead person move the boulder of the tomb?
--- The Handbook of Christian Apologetics, by Peter Kreeft and Ronald K. Tacelli
The Swoon Theory eventually dovetails into a theory of conspiracy, by the disciples and authors of the texts in the Bible. This theory also is addressed by that book and others. For the sake of not getting too far off topic, I leave it to anyone to read in their own time. Besides, as others have pointed out, the resurrection that this article is about is the resurrection of all dead at the end of the age.
I don't think it is fair to call anything in the Bible an "eyewitness account".
The eyewitness accounts are more likely to be reliable than the other historical documents of that age we have.
"Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jewish leaders did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water."
Breaking the person leg, the the person cruxcified will die asphyxiated (without the legs to sustain, the body will be sustained by the arms, turning hard/impossible breathe). But the soldier saw Jesus dead, and dont break the legs, (its harder break bones), just piercing with the spear is easier and it will die via bleeding anyway. So, here we got a testimony from a Roman Soldier (in theory a neutral watcher) about the dead of Jesus.
If you think this might explain the account of the resurrection, note that the account emphasizes that the apostles doesn't recognize the resurrected Jesus. If it was actually Jesus who had survived, surely they would recognize him. Furthermore the resurrected Jesus does not seem to have an ordinary physical body - he is able to walk through walls for example. Given this I don't think a "not clinically dead"-theory explains anything.
The earliest manuscripts of the gospel of Mark do not mention the resurrection at all.
Later manuscripts have verses tacked on, in what is nowadays called Mark 16. You can read about this online, there is several centuries worth of discussion about it.
Are you sure about that? My understanding is that the earliest manuscripts end at Mark 16:8, which ends with the women finding the empty tomb and being told by a young man in a white robe that Jesus has risen.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_16#Significance_of_ending...
and
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+16&version...
EDIT: the undisputed ending of Mark, which is up to verse 8 (Catholic version):
5 On entering the tomb they saw a young man in a white robe seated on the right-hand side, and they were struck with amazement.
6 But he said to them, 'There is no need to be so amazed. You are looking for Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified: he has risen, he is not here. See, here is the place where they laid him.
7 But you must go and tell his disciples and Peter, "He is going ahead of you to Galilee; that is where you will see him, just as he told you." '
8 And the women came out and ran away from the tomb because they were frightened out of their wits; and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.
But an even simpler explanation is that Jesus himself was invented too.
The problem is that intelligent autodidacts confuse the disciplines of science (developing theories and performing experiments to provide potentially disprovable evidence of universal, timeless laws of nature) and history (the study of written texts about events that occurred in the past) and the types of evidence acceptable to both fields. Hint: they're completely different.
The problem is that, if you want to advance a historical theory claiming that there was no historical guy called Jesus who inspired the gospel, you have to come up with a compelling theory, based on historical (written records from the past) evidence describing who built the first churches, who wrote the first gospels, why they made up a story about a Palestinian Jew who was crucified 300 years ago, and why that story was so compelling it caught on with the masses and elites alike.
Or you could just go with the idea that there was a guy running around the middle east 2,000 years ago, who pissed of the Jewish and Roman elite, so much to the point that he was executed. And about whom miracles were claimed to have been performed.
The thing is, for all religions developing where we have iron-clad evidence (Mormonism, Scientology, etc), it always starts with a charismatic leader who attracts a following. Throw a rock in India, and you can find any number of gurus who are said to be capable of levitating, not eating for long periods of time, etc. etc. There is nothing really extraordinary about the story of Jesus, comparatively speaking.
If you're going to make a historical theory that Jesus never existed, but instead was invented by someone else, you have to identify that someone else. In fleshing out your theory, you'll probably want to say why they invented it, and why it caught on, when many other small cults and gurus petered out.
Christianity didn't arise out of nowhere in, say, England in 1500.
As to timeframe: A lot of key written evidence of Jesus was authored within a century of his life, which comparatively is "pretty good" as far as these things go. Much written evidence of historical events or people that we have wasn't contemporary to the subject in question either, but authored by historians, sometimes far later than a century. By that standard, the contemporaneousness is "pretty good".
As to Sources: In addition to the synoptic gospels, you also have non-Christian, non-sympathetic sources such as Tacitus referring to the Crucifixion of Jesus by Pontius Pilate. Or Josephus. This represents a variation of disconnected sources (not informed by each other), that by any standard is comparatively better than most.
So the quality of the evidence is built upon not only the _quantity_ of accounts, but the variation of sources, and the general agreement of even basic facts (existence, death). This quality is better evidence than we have of many historical figures that we assume to be real. And as another comment pointed out, the simplest explanation is that this doesn't represent a grand conspiracy of disconnected ancients.
Thats not an argument for the accuracy of the story, thats an argument against the accuracy of the rest of history.
:)
The body of a gladiator who had died well was placed on a couch of Libitina and removed with dignity to the arena morgue, where the corpse was stripped of armour, and probably had its throat cut to prove that dead was dead. The Christian author Tertullian, commenting on ludi meridiani in Roman Carthage during the peak era of the games, describes a more humiliating method of removal. One arena official, dressed as the "brother of Jove", Dis Pater (god of the underworld) strikes the corpse with a mallet. Another, dressed as Mercury, tests for life-signs with a heated "wand"; once confirmed as dead, the body is dragged from the arena.[108]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladiator#Death_and_disposal
Boyle wasn't speaking about Jesus' ressurection.
You're right; it's not based on and scholarship or methodology. It's just simple associational reasoning. "These two things are similar, so therefore they are the same".