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Comment by carlob | Hacker News Reader

> In fact, Roman cuisine wasn’t at all like Italian food. It was all about contrasting sweet with salty and sour foods (they liked to eat fishgut sauce, garum, with melon).

It's true that it wasn't at all like Italian food, but this is a particularly bad example:

1. garum kinda lives on as colatura di alici, though the former was fermented, and the latter isn't [1]

2. Italian cuisine still contrast melon with salty food, just prosciutto, not fish

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colatura_di_Alici

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Garum also lives on as Worcestershire sauce, which unlike colatura is still fermented. I'm happy you showed me this, it's incredible to see living Roman history, still 2,000 miles apart!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worcestershire_sauce

I remember looking at the ingredient list as a kid and wondering why in the world you would put fermented fish in a sauce.

Then I learned biology, in particular the molecular nature of umami, and it makes perfect sense.

Fish sauce of course is a Thai and far east staple!

The book The History of Salt says that soy sauce originally started out as fermented fish sauce and that it and garum may have a common ancestor.

Also the basis of Sambal sauces from Indonesia. I think thy may be shrimp based, though.

They were more than likely developed independently. Putting a bunch of fish in a container and adding salt seems pretty standard pre-refrigeration.

I recommend this lecture about the history of ketchup, which explains the relation to soy sauce: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iYwUh1Hdho

I guess it is notable that the Romans didn't have tomatoes.

Or zucchini, peppers, eggplants, chillies, and coffee which are all staples of Italian cuisine now.

Don't forget pasta, avocados, pineapples, chocolate, potatoes or chocolate

The Romans probably had some kind of fried pasta called lagana (probably cognate of lasagna), the other things you mention are not quite staples, for example avocados are still pretty hard to come by in Italy.

Yeah avocados are a stretch. I included them because last time I was in Italy there was a tray of avocados with balsamic vinegar, tomatoes, basil and mozzarella everyday and at every meal at catering and I was there for a few weeks. It was delicious but threw me off. Pineapples on the other hand I've been able to find at nearly every street pizza vendor and and pineapple juice in almost every grocery and convenient store. There's no doubt Italians and Greeks were making something with their grain, wheat was domesticated not far from Italy in Turkey of course, but they weren't making pasta until Marco Polo or somebody brought the practice back from China. I think the real issue is when does "Italy" really begin, and what constitutes "Italian food"? Of course none of this really matters it's just fun to argue about mainly because Italians are just so proud of their food. I guess all cultures are and rightfully so.

Why can't pasta have been invented independently in Italy and in China (and possibly somewhere else?). After all flatbread and pizza are very very common in cultures that had not communicated.

As a matter of fact the first written mention of pasta in Italy predates Marco Polo's birth by exactly one century (1154-1254).

They had olives, bread, cheese, mushrooms, and sausage, though. Imagine being stuck in a dystopian Italy where they were one ingredient away from being able to make pizza.

olive oil based pizza is actually pretty good

Yes. We regularly have this, cooked by Nonna or my wife...

They did have dormice, which in a way we don't.

http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/ancient-rome/roman-food...

Every time I put salt on my cantaloupes people look at me like I'm a monster, until they try it.

Even better is a salty cheese.

Apple slices with cheese. Mmmm.

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