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Comment by restingrobot | Hacker News Reader

You have moved to an ad hominem approach regarding my past, normally I wouldn't even respond to this, but in this instance you are completely wrong.

I actually grew up very poor. As in my next meal was a privilege and not a guaranteed thing. I think its easy to dismiss my points by assuming that I have no experience with poverty, (or the pain of not having eaten a substantive meal for several days).

Again you reference

>checkered history of overdrafts or bounced checks.

Believe it our not, these are choices. You have a choice whether or not to write a check for more than you have in your bank account. You have a choice whether to with draw more than your current balance.

Furthermore, your point is moot as there are many options for those with spotty histories. A quick google search turned up this: https://twocents.lifehacker.com/how-can-i-open-a-bank-accoun...

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>> You have a choice whether or not to write a check for more than you have in your bank account.

It's a 'choice' if you are choosing to buy a shiny thing you didn't really need. It's hardly a choice if you have to write that check to buy medicines for your sick kid.

It's your choice to have a kid. My wife and I are waiting to meet a certain household income before having kids. I have little sympathy for people who are poor, have kids, and complain about how expensive it is.

>> It's hardly a choice if you have to write that check to buy medicines for your sick kid.

This is certainly a tough scenario to argue against (way to choose a truly heart-wrenching emotional situation ;-), but the fact is, if you are writing a check (even for a good cause), knowing that you don't have money in the account, that also is a choice. Certainly there must be another way... use a credit card, get in a time machine and convince last_year_you that you need to create a small (or large) emergency fund for these sorts of things... etc.

Surely you jest ...."use a credit card"???? Most people who are poor don't even have bank accounts because they cannot manage them or they cannot afford the monthly fee. And no, bank accounts are not universally free if you have a direct deposit. My parents receive social security via direct deposit and they have never ever had an insufficient check in more than 50 years of maintaining a bank account. They still have a monthly fee.

In the words of Maya Angelou, "when you know better you do better." Maybe we should not only look into solutions to help people pull themselves out of poverty but maybe we should help with education to make the interim just a little bit easier.

Sure, "use a credit card". I'm listing options here. < that's what the "etc" was for> Some will work for some people, some will work for others. I a little surprised you chose to argue against credit card rather than time machine though...

What I was really trying to get at though is this: if you write a check with insufficient funds, you are just making the situation worse for yourself.

I agree that we should help with education but we should start with something simple like "don't write checks that are going to bounce". Second would be "don't spend money you don't have", so obviously the credit card scenario itself is not ideal, but better than a bounced check.

I don't argue against things that don't exist (time machine). And you are missing my point, most people who are poor do not have a credit card. There options are few and far between.

What I am suggesting by education is financial education such as don't spend what you don't have (if you have an account, don't write bad checks). Don't borrow money from payday lenders, etc. How to reduce expenses by having a roommate, utilizing public transportation, starting a community garden, etc. Then adding things such as you can go for dental care that is income based? Where you can go for annual flu shots etc?

I am not trying to make excuses for the decisions people make. What I am saying is to give alternatives (credit cards) that are not likely available to the majority of people who are poor does little to advance efforts to help find solutions that should be aimed at education and the development of safety nets for those all too common but expenses expenses (dental care).

When people know better, they do better. It has been repeated time and time again in these comments. People learned a better way and with that knowledge they were able to make much better choices and change their lives.

> And you are missing my point, most people who are poor do not have a credit card.

I repeat... < that's what the "etc" was for>. I don't think you read my entire comment...

I didn't miss your point. I think we actually agree for the most part. My bit about the time machine was basically saying, if you could go back in time and tell yourself, "hey, buying shiny things is less important than establishing an emergency fund" and similar other wisdom, that would be ideal. Obviously, we don't have a time machine so we can only tell people these things going forward. Sounds a lot like the "financial education" you refer to.

It does but that is not necessarily a lesson that needs to be learned by those who are poor. If you read the thread here about those of us who have had to clean out our aging parents home it is amazing how much stuff they have that they hold on to forever and really did not serve a purpose other than to have it.

We all make financial mistakes. It is just that the mistakes of the poor have much more profound consequences.

When you are saying "that is not necessarily a lesson that needs to be learned by those who are poor".... are you referring to my statement that "buying shiny things is less important than establishing an emergency fund"?

If so, we definitely disagree. Those are the people in most need of an emergency fund.

You mentioned safety nets earlier > the development of safety nets for those all too common but expenses expenses

I would argue that a personal emergency fund is the first form of safety net that everyone should have.

> If you read the thread here about those of us who have had to clean out our aging parents home it is amazing how much stuff they have that they hold on to forever and really did not serve a purpose other than to have it.

I'm not sure what the relevance is here?

They're "choices", frequently, in name only. If you have ever been as poor as you claim you'd know and understand that. That's why I am skeptical of your claim. You can interpret it as an ad hominem or not.

> You have a choice whether to with draw more than your current balance.

Banks reorder transactions to create overdrafts. This includes delaying deposits and processing payments highest to lowest. This can cascade into multiple "overdraft protection" fees from payments that happen days after a direct deposit.

> You have a choice whether or not to write a check for more than you have in your bank account.

My next meal was always a guaranteed thing, yet I've experienced rent, power, insurance, gas bills coming in at the same time that have left me hoping that somebody doesn't deposit that check for a few days.

A late fee on a utility is ALWAYS better than an overdraft or a bounced check. I see this argument so much. I can only speak from my experience, but if I was ever short, I would call the company and explain, 9 times out of 10 I would be granted an extension. I found it especially likely if I simply explained that my check had not cleared. Many times, I was not even charged a late fee. Again this is my experience, and I can't speak for everyone.

Okay, but what if you are on disability and your check is 5 days, for example, after the due date. Do you really think they are going to give you an extension every month? I use to work with people with disabilities and believe me, this happens more than you know. They may not cut off your service but adding $10-12 a month your already over stretched budget just continues to compound the issues.

It is a snowball and it only takes an event or two to begin rolling down hill much faster than you can.

These are some extreme cases you've started talking.

I have worked with people with disabilities the majority of my career. I wish this was an extreme example. I could probably name upwards of 2,000 people just in my area of the state that have this very problem monthly. And that is just one region of our state. And that does not count the number of elderly who receive their retirement on a rolling basis monthly who also experience this issue. I would venture to guess that more than half a million people experience this issue. So in my opinion, not so extreme.

And a major electric company in our area was having such a problem with late payments that they started a program that allowed people who received social security to submit documentation and their bill could be deducted from their account automatically on their social security pay date with zero late fees. The only catch was that the account had to have a zero balance in order to sign up.

The easy solution is on social security pay day, pay your current bill with the late fee and sign up thus eliminating all future late fees from this electric corporation. Out of the more than 34,000 eligible accounts less than 1,600 signed up. That is probably partially because the program was not well known and the misconception that a party would have to pay 2 months electric bill at one time to subscribe. I helped a number of people sign up but some people just are too nervous to give the electric company the right to auto draft on their social security pay date. Whoever failed to sign up will pay an extra $8-12 a month I would guess.

The point is these aren't extreme cases. This is kind of a typical poverty stricken life.

>> You have a choice whether or not to write a check for more than you have in your bank account.

That's right

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