Magic Leap is experimenting with light-bending nanomaterials | Hacker News Reader

Magic Leap is experimenting with light-bending nanomaterials

engadget.com

39 pointssjcsjc59 comments

If we're seeing articles like this I'm guessing they are preparing to do another round of funding?

The only time these guys ever make the news is just before they raise a massive heap of capital, and this news looks just as vacuous as all the other news they release.

Just based on the HoloLens having a product out already (even if only a dev version) it seems to me like Magic Leap is way behind.

Say what you will about them but at least their recruiters still seem to be the same. Apparently them visiting linkedin profiles correlates with the funding rounds (or news before funding rounds, i.e. now).

They apparently already have 1200 employees.

Magic Leap seems to have mastered the idea of "Look investors, this next thing, it'll be the best trust me."

Meanwhile you can buy a Vive today or in a couple weeks a Windows Mixed Reality set (VR might be 'good enough' for most use cases ML would target). On top of the hololens, which is a closer product. Hololens fov leaves a lot to desire, but it actually works and anyone with the cash or willingness to go to the Kennedy Space Center can try it.

Not sure where Magic Leap is going right now, hopefully they'll release a revolutionary product, but the fact they never release a beta or devkit on the chip and projection system they've been talking up for half a decade is very worrisome.

Whatever they do, I hope they rehearse their song and dance routine better this time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8J5BWL8oJY&t=4m30s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8J5BWL8oJY&t=4m30s*
What the actual fuck did I just watch?

The gist of it was: "We just fooled the fuck out of google, so fuck you, I got mine and I want you to know it, so now that I have your attention, I'm going to waste your time, and make you smell my farts, because I have absolutely no respect for you. Fudge! Fudge! Fudge!"

Does anybody remember Teranos?
FYI, Magic Leap CEO is weird. Here is his blog http://fixtheworld.blogs.com/fixtheworld/page/2/

Hololens is not a finished product, it is only a dev kit. With an abysmal field of view. Magic Leap from the rumours seems definitely better.

Nice try, Ronnie.

You are right

If Magic Leap wins, which I doubt, it will be because of their deep thinking about what AR means at the OS interactions level. Microsoft and Google completely failed to marshal any deep thinking about post-mouse AR interaction paradigms beyond "give the user a Bluetooth clicker" and "maybe voice?".
If Magic Leap fails, which I expect, it will be because they are approaching this deep thinking as a never-ending Xerox Parc style research project, not something that needs to be rapidly racing towards a set of standards and conventions and API's to be used by 3rd party devs in order to deliver the intended consistent user experience to end users across huge numbers of applications.
In Apple terms, Magic Leap desperately needs both their Andy Hertzfeld and their Guy Kawasaki, and shows no signs of having either one.

Deep thinking is beat by a company that ships accessible products. Apple shipped AR that is inferior to Tango but is now the thing to beat. Tango is better but expensive and not accessible.
My prediction, Magic Leap eventually fails and is bought for cents on the VC $ by Samsung, Apple, Huawei or similar. Even an acquisition in the $100M means everyone but a few VCs were wiped out completely.

They won't pass due diligence.
I hope Oracle buys them! It would serve them right.

Magic Leap appears to be so focused on "cinematic reality" and the impressive demos that it enables that there is no effort being spent on the kind of practical applications that would actually give a shipping product value beyond a tech demo.
Worse, even ML's occasional stabs at something "practical" are all art and no design: Witness their conceptual Gmail interface, which transforms the web UI into a Rube Goldberg-esque mechanical device, giving scroll views a third dimension that adds zero utility while requiring new gestures to do the exact same things everyone already knows how to do in a web browser.
Microsoft may still have yet to deliver on any of the content creation and collaboration ideas proposed in the Hololens demos, but at least it was the start of a coherent vision.

It's very hard to tell, and ML's UX work certainly could be as intellectually bankrupt as you suggest but my read is they are doing a lot of detailed explorations around specific use cases in hopes of informing a larger/broader interaction design suite that can scale across a very wide range of interaction needs, essentially trying to reanalyze the problem space in much the way that led to the distillation of the Windows, Icons, Mouse, Pointer schema at Xerox Parc.
Microsoft seems to be keeping its sights much smaller and making much more tactical delta off of existing concepts (eg. much of Windows MR interactions really is just floating traditional windows with traditional mouse and keyboard interactions).

At least they've got their P. T. Barnum.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8J5BWL8oJY&t=4m30s

Magic Leap: Started in 2011. 1.39 Billion $ funding. 6 years, No product / service delivered. With Apple getting serious with ARKit and Android trying to jump on board, when phones can rule AR, what Magic Leap could/would do? Sell to Jeff Bezos?

Magic Leaps stuff is trying to be the next step beyond phone AR and is a big step up if they can get their immersive AR right. It's similar to the difference between early VR headsets that could only track orientation vs the Vive's room scale position tracking. They're both VR but the difference in utility and enjoyment is massive. I think we'll see the same thing with phone AR vs headset/goggle AR.
Though personally I'm not pinning many hopes on Magic Leap specifically given how little we've seen of their actual device and how vague they are about actual progress.

> Though personally I'm not pinning many hopes on Magic Leap specifically given how little we've seen of their actual device and how vague they are about actual progress.
I like it that they are trying something other than the traditional goggle based VR/AR that nobody wants.

Ironically their recent patent was just a goggle (as supposed to the Mixed reality/retina lens hype) https://www.engadget.com/amp/2017/08/30/magic-leap-rumored-a...

"There's just one problem: Magic Leap didn't actually create all those awesome UI concepts. It copied them."
"The images speak for themselves. On the left of each of these comparision shots, you'll see an illustration plucked directly from this Magic Leap patent application. On the right, you'll find a screengrab from an awesome UI concept invented by someone else."
http://gizmodo.com/magic-leap-ripped-off-those-awesome-ui-co...

As far as I can tell Magic Leap is working on light field technology. Essentially the big problem with AR right now is that it only fools half of the human visual system.
Parallax is one way your eyes estimate distance. All the AR headsets have this down.
The other is focal length. Your eyes need to set focus distance properly for the object you're trying to look at. This is where existing AR falls flat. And why it doesn't quite look real.
The way to fool the focal system is through bending light. Much harder than two offset displays. Not sure exactly how they're doing it but it sounds like they're doing something with optical fibre to project images on the retina itself.
The second hard part about faking focal length is that unless you can manage to bend all the light coming from the scene properly all the time you need to have really good eye tracking. Not sure how they're solving this either...
Whoever solves the focal distance part of tricking the human brain will rapidly develop AR/VR that is indistinguishable from reality. I just wish magic leap would focus on regular headsets to make some money instead of betting all their billions on light fields.

> will rapidly develop AR/VR that is indistinguishable from reality
Wow you sound like me from the 90s. You severely overestimate GPUs and underestimate the human eye.

I'm not talking about real time though. Pre-recorded light field videos would already be high enough resolution. It might not be perfect but like the CGI nowadays close enough where there's moments you can't tell

Perhaps, but realistic scenes are bounded by the number of lights and triangles more than resolution. There are heuristics and approximations to get around this, but I think we will only be able to fake a subset of the human visual experience. Lots of smooth surfaces and simple lighting setups: think car shows and apartment renders, not nature.
Realism can be extremely complex!

Whoever solves the focal distance part of tricking the human brain will rapidly develop AR/VR that is indistinguishable from reality.
Probably not. Yes it is a big part of it, but Avegant put out a system which allows accommodation (the term for what you describe for multiple depth fields) and it hasn't really made much of a difference [1].
[1]https://www.avegant.com/blog/company-news/introducing-avegan...

Most folks seem enthralled by the vive but the fixed focal length makes it feel very off to me. I feel more like I'm being surrounded by tv screens than actually immersed in an environment.

Have these guys actually delivered anything yet?

Same thought

No.
I remember very distinctly at the end of May being in New York for a holiday, walking through Central Park listening to a The Verge podcast discussing Magic Leap's amazing technology that they've been working on for the past n years. Over a year later still nothing close.
Ironically, Magic Leap will always remind me of Central Park.

Yes, a few demos and lots of conspiracy theories :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-boQHtlqMx8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lP5ZZI05A3g

Do they risk anything if they lie about the fact that the videos are unedited? Could investors sue them for example?

I don't know why would it make sense. To grab more investment money? Fraud at this level would be incredibly stupid.

After Theranos I would be wary. But I mainly want to see how to manage my expectations. The videos are quite amazing.

Investors actually tried the prototype before giving them money, they didn't invest based on the videos.

Their original demo video was fake, their patents ripped off many other people's original work without giving them any credit, and they fooled the investors as well as the press, and certainly they fooled you. But the sexual harassment was real.
http://gizmodo.com/magic-leap-ripped-off-those-awesome-ui-co...
https://www.engadget.com/2017/05/09/magic-leap-settles-lawsu...
You really want to believe, don't you? Please stop spreading unsubstantiated rumors and unquestioningly parroting their bullshit. This is the third time you've tried that in this thread, without presenting any proof or revealing the source of the rumors you're trying to spread.

As a matter of well documented fact, they DID lie about their original video demo being unedited, and after they were caught red-handed, they edited the title and description of the video AFTER they were busted so it wasn't as absolutely intentionally deceptive as it originally was.
The First Video of Magic Leap's Technology Looks Fake:
https://www.recode.net/2015/3/19/11560520/the-first-video-of...
The bald faced lies were in the original title "Just another day in the office at Magic Leap" and description "This is a game we’re playing around the office right now" of this fake video, which Magic Leap PR head Andy Fouché lied to a reporter about by falsely confirming that the fake video was authentic and the game shown was already being played around the office:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPMHcanq0xM
Dear Magic Leap:
"Back in the day" before you whitewashed the lying title and description, when the original title of this video was "Just another day in the office at Magic Leap" and the description claimed "This is a game we’re playing around the office right now", you found it easy to deceive everyone that this was NOT just a concept video, but an actual working game that you were playing around the office. When reporters rightfully suspected you were lying about that, they asked your official spokesperson about it, who officially and mendaciously lied that the video was authentic. Your company is deceptive and your product is a fraud.
http://time.com/3752343/magic-leap-video/
It's unclear whether the video shows an actual game overlaid onto a real-world office space or just an artistic rendering of what the game might look like in the future. The way the gun rests so realistically in the gamer's hand certainly raises suspicions. Still, a company spokesperson confirmed to Gizmodo that the video was authentic.
"This is a game we’re playing around the office right now," Magic Leap wrote on its official YouTube account.
The game that Magic Leap is playing is FRAUD.
Only after you got busted did you retroactively changed the title and description of this video to admit it's only a concept video.
https://www.theverge.com/2016/12/8/13894000/magic-leap-ar-mi...
It's no surprise you folded lie a cheap suit when Tannen Campbell filed a sexual harassment lawsuit against you.
https://www.engadget.com/2017/05/09/magic-leap-settles-lawsu...
Followup: Magic Leap PR head Andy Fouché, after falsely confirming the lies, quit in disgrace after a deviating article was published about Magic Leap:
https://www.recode.net/2016/12/14/13957478/magic-leap-andy-f...
The chief PR executive for Magic Leap, the much-hyped augmented reality startup, is leaving the company less than a week after a high-profile article challenged many of the company’s claims.
The high-profile devastating article:
https://www.theinformation.com/the-reality-behind-magic-leap

For some reason these demos make me think of Black Mirror. That show has completely ruined my ability to see any new technology without imagining the hellish dystopia that it will enable. Perhaps this is a good thing. :)

Unrelated, but similar to many icos of today :)

Aside from video demos made to feel ad-hoc and in-the-moment but are perhaps very carefully edited, no. Unless they really wow the fuck out of the public soon, I personally think in a couple years they will suffer a Theranos-style collapse, and given the amount of money that they've raised, hopefully it pops the VC bubble.

No, but I suspect the reason for that is that they don't need to. There are two reasons to release a product. The first is because it's perfect and there's no more work to be done on it, and the second is because you want/need to start recouping the money you've spent developing it. Magic Leap are not in either position. They've not built the product they want to build yet, and they're not especially short on cash. The fact they've not released anything means very little at this stage.
I'm mildly skeptical about what they're making, but at the same time the videos are impressive, and if someone told me Apple had spent $1.5bn and 6 years on a top secret project I'd be hugely excited about what it might look like.

The third is that users are unpredictable and the best way to find out if you are on to a real business is to figure it out through releasing better and better products.
Not sure if that applies to ML, because they may think of themselves as a licensing deal, but who knows?

> I'm mildly skeptical about what they're making
I gave up hope on them after Wired did a piece on them and reported almost nothing. I think if they had something to show, they would have shown it. Today I don't think they have anything except a bunch of receipts for R&D expenditures.
> if someone told me Apple had spent $1.5bn and 6 years on a top secret project I'd be hugely excited about what it might look like
Me too. The difference is Apple has shown that they can build and ship things.

They have a portable prototype since at least February. There are rumours of a presentation by the end of this year.

The rumors around this company are crazy.
My gut tells me there is a very small chance they are going to blow everybody away and come out with mixed-reality device that is truly revolutionary.
There's a very big chance that they are going to launch something underwhelming and get ridiculed by the press. Their promo videos (like the whale jumping out of a gymnasium floor in front of kids) were probably a big mistake.

and if someone told me Apple had spent $1.5bn and 6 years on a top secret project I'd be hugely excited about what it might look like.
Apple have a battle-proven history of being able to execute and deliver. Magic Leap doesn't.

Magic Leap has a long game in mind. I have read/watched many interviews with them over "the years" and this was my impression. They aren't in it to just launch something quickly. Just because everyone else has that expectation doesn't mean they are failing or will fail.
I have a pretty high degree of confidence in them and their vision. I do wish it was an "open" company/product though. Who knows, maybe it will be.

Why would anybody stick with such a investment? Either sunken cost fallacy- or they just have the potential to be this good. In that case, some sunken millions are actually quite peanuts - to have the foot in the door on the next layer of devices, who is going to wrap around our daily lives, making the older layers obsolete or dependent upon you for access to the the customers.
This is the long breath it takes, to sail through the enthusiasm and failure of a near-similar tech (VR!) and reach a goal. It is not portable yet? Who cares. The first cellphones where bricks. We shrunk them down two a chocolate-bar.
One leap for mankind.

> It is not portable yet? Who cares.
Investors should. Even though the first cell phones were from Motorola, Motorola ended up being pretty much irrelevant.
Regardless of what Magic Leap eventually releases, I'm excited to see what developers can do with AR (or MR). Somebody will eventually come up with a killer app, right?

He who controls the patents, controls the revenue-streams of the universe. There is only one place where the true, durable spice can be harvested, in the past, researching it- creating tons of original IP, to milk future generations for all the tech is worth.

HN loves to deride ML for not releasing a product but I have been severely underwhelmed by AR/VR technology over the past few years. I believe only Snapchat has truly hit the lotto. I don't mind them taking their time to deliver the product, especially if it seems they have plenty of cash on hand.

Don't compare actual products with hypothetical products. Who's to say ML won't also severely underwhelm when/if they release, especially given all they have promised

Ah the snake oil merchants want another round of dim investor money I see.

Moller Flying Car folks?

Everytime I read something about Magic Leap it is "they may or may not use this tech for this product they may or may not be working on".

It seems if there's a tech investing bubble it definitely has not started bursting yet - investors are breathlessly funding vapor-ware.

I am reminded of "nuclear fusion is always 30 years away."

Real artists ship

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