Maybe we should stop thinking taxes are the solution to inequality. "Cutting all the high trees so the forest looks even".
What are some solutions you're aware of that are equally effective and less invasive?
None of these are solutions to inequality. Tax-backed redistribution efforts (think new deal) have had no measurable positive impact on absolute or relative poverty; nor have minimum wage laws. The idea of corrupting the CEO compensation and hiring practice at the national level is about as boneheaded as they come.
All of these actions decrease efficiency, and none of them have a significant positive impact on poverty.
I just don't see the point of insisting we "do something!" when none of the similar "solutions" we've tried have made for any positive change, and all of them have measurably cost us in efficiency and growth. The "do something!" model of governance is cruel and deficient; if it would be better, all things considered, to do nothing, then do nothing!
Granted Scandinavian countries, now more just Norway and Denmark, tend to have very low potential for poverty in general. The rate would likely be comparatively low even without the programmes. Norway and Denmark have both considerably reduced entitlements over the years to relieve the enormous stress they put on the economy.
Well before any of these programmes became so comprehensive, Norway, Denmark, and Sweden were very productive and comparatively equal.
I.e. giving poor people money doesn't end up with the poor spending more money.
I don't really agree with this. Taxes are distortive and doesn't necesarily help inequality. It might even make it worse. But also, there is taxation as a progressive system of government funding, as there is taxation as in "You will never own more than X, because the government will seize it".
In terms of solutions, I'm not a professional economist, but as I read different authors and books, it really seems like we don't understand why we have inequality in the first place. Even Piketty's Capital feels more like explaining that its going on than why. So I'm jitterish about any solution that doesn't help resolve the core cause, for the which there doesn't seem to be consensus
The CEO's pays is a small but funny example about that: CEO's pays increased enormously after by a law thought to dimishing their returns, made their salaries public, and increased CEO's ambition and bargaining power. The very idea to dock their pay increased it.
But those are small bits at the macro-economic level.
Care to explain?
[1] ignoring the whole subject about luck and what it means to earn something when two equivalent folks just have different dice rolls go their way, etc. Or especially in the context what it means to earn something when you just inherited it. (I have a bunch of friends who have inheritance coming their way and just totally expect it, they lead very different lives because of that than those I know who don't have that.)
It would have negative consequences besides that. Many, many people do things for "legacy". It's a powerful motivator. Taking away all wealth would eliminate something that encourages good long-term decision making.
It would hurt people who aren't the rich people. What would happen if Sam Walton's net worth was taxed when he died? Massive disruption to Walmart employees at a minimum. How would the net worth be calculated? Well, given his net worth, he'd be irresponsible not to have an army of lawyers and lobbyists making sure the number is as small as possible.
So, given the above, the idea isn't that simple.
Finally, there are ethical implications to that sort of policy. It implies that citizens earn at the pleasure of the government, not that the government rules by the consent of its citizens.
Who are you to make that decision for someone?
And, frankly, you're delusional if you think an estate tax is non distortive. The entire meaning of wealth would change for the elderly.
One cannot treat wealth like a zero sum game. More importantly, we need to rid ourselves of this growing crabs in a bucket mentality, because we all suffer when we hold society's best back. Is it "fair" in the sense of absolute wealth? No, but people shouldn't be so focused on their neighbor's plate then theirs is full enough that they can spend hours complaining online about how much more money the 1% have. Perhaps we should redefine fair wealth distribution to rightfully consider merit, which is shockingly absent from the majority view here.
And your definition of "fair playing field" is skewed because, again, you treat economics as a zero sum game. You are making the classic mistake of conflating equality of outcome with equality of opportunity.
In any case, this class warfare inspired policy of exhaustively taxing wealth won't fix a mismanaged budget or a broken scholarly culture. You are simply punishing the people who seem to have benefited most in the context of the system while ignoring merit.
Further, it is absolutely absurd to suggest that modern people in poverty dont live "good" lives. They have refrigeration, air conditioning, entertainment, access to the internet, emergency healthcare, they live like kings once did. Once again this is a problem of looking at other peoples' lives and concluding that only in comparison you deserve more for simply existing.
Taxation will not fix what is fundamentally a cultural problem.
Aside: Look at how absurd the entire argument is! We dont question in absolute terms how our poor are living, we focus entirely on the fact that the wealth is distributed unevenly. Like children complaining that their classmates have extra candy. The whole mindset is petty.
Don't you think that inheritance is a pretty bad way of achieving that? After all, traits like intelligence (which probably dominates the ability to use resources efficiently) are only about 50% heritable.
Why dont we spend more federal funds on gifted children? We watch the trainwreck that is our school system as we fail to match pupils in other countries at senior high school level. The issue is, again, not taxation, on the contrary, we are not spending enough where it counts because of the greed of the entitled.
Outcome and opportunity is a false dichotomy. But if we were to go along with it, isn't a tax on inherited wealth a great way to maintain equality of opportunity?
About merit, I think I know about merit. If you take the public transport at 5:30 in the morning you will see a lot of people that go to work for years for a ridiculous small pay and, that if they stopped doing that, society as we know would stop. That, I think, have a lot of merit.
On the other hand, in any standard corporation, you can find people with huge wages, with company car, that never pay a lunch because they put in the expenses account and that employ its time in political movements to try to go up in the ladder.
Of course, if you think that markets give everyone whatever they deserve, or you have not been in the public transport at 5:30, then, what I'm saying doesn't make any sense.
Leaving the metric to optimize to the optimization process doesn't look a good idea, the same way it's not a good idea to leave the thermostat to choose the temperature.
In my experience, the only people that think that the thermostat it's who should choose the temperature, it's the people that feels very comfortable with the current one and don't care about the comfort of the others in the house. Or, maybe, also the people that grew up in a house without thermostat and thinks, correctly, that anything is better.
First, it's much easier to get a rough idea of how many people states have killed than markets, to be sure. But many wars are fought and nations are conquered (and, for that matter, created) for market-driven reasons: oil, tea, diamonds, slaves, to name a few egregious examples off the top of my head. Millions of people have died throughout history that would not have if states were not acting to protect, expand, or create markets.
Second, while it's probably harder to get a rough idea of how many people states have saved than markets have, the number is not inconsequential. I certainly wouldn't suggest states are forces for unrequited good--there's copious valid criticism of them across the political spectrum--but I would suggest that they're hardly forces for unrequited evil, either.
In Argentina, the state collects a heft tax on property transfers when the propietor dies. So basically all property is donated from parents to children in-life.
Poorer property owners that cant afford or dont know better, or people stricken with tragedy in an early death are likely the ones that pay the most of that tax.
Conclusion, 'death taxes' are paid by the poorer half and hence worsens inequality.
On results: lets say that I were to tell you that all the money in your bank account is going to be worth 0 tomorrow. Are you going to invest that money in long term capital growth? Are you going to donate it to the government? I'd say the most reasonable reaction is drugs and hookers all the way!
The latter is definitely not great economic policy.
And the real solution isn't a 100% tax but 100% tax over some lower amount, say $50,000 along with lowering the yearly gift tax exemption.
Inherited wealth is anathema to meritocracies.
Well, this is were we clearly disagree. I am very certain that if i knew that i was going to die in 6 months, id be burning all my money into some kickass 6 months with "Burguers" and "Premium Tinder accounts". Consumption vs Investment is a core battle between Keynesian and Chicago School economics, so it depends on which you subscribe.
> meritocracies.
I actually do wonder who argues in favor of meritocracies. Sure as hell not liberal-economics.
"Get what we deserve? I hope to god we don't get what we deserve" - Milton Friedman.
> And the real solution isn't a 100% tax but 100% tax over some lower amount, say $50,000 along with lowering the yearly gift tax exemption.
This just compromises the original concept of equality of opportunity: if you do that, anyone below 50k will be in an unfavourable position relatively. So what you did with that limit is imposing something on a group, intended to be a minority that wouldnt be able to repeal such rule. The fact that these rules end up like this has been extensively exposed by people like MF.
Its like saying that you are going to base justice on "protecting good people and punishing bad people".
I can be swayed otherwise if I was shown what a meritocratic system would look like, but most of the times I heard that word it was as a criticism of laissez-fair capitalism that would rarely claim to be meritocratic.
That's exactly what our justice system is... Sometimes we fail at abstracting our morality to the courts but that's exactly what our goal is.
>I can be swayed otherwise if I was shown what a meritocratic system would look like, but most of the times I heard that word it was as a criticism of laissez-fair capitalism that would rarely claim to be meritocratic.
So your logic is "people usually use meritocracy as a knock against capitalism" and then establish your premise? "meritocracy is bad"? Doesn't make any sense. A perfectly meritocratic system doesn't exist and probably never will but systems which try to promote equality of opportunity are generally good. Our defense of "meritocracy" comes from the Rawlsian veil of ignorance. Behind it, it becomes obvious you would want to live in a society which provides a relatively equal chance for everybody and which, if you seize that chance, will reward you.
This spring I cut very high pine because it shadowed my entire backyard and I want to grow more smaller trees on the perimeter.
There is unrest in the forest
There is trouble with the trees
For the maples want more sunlight
And the oaks ignore their pleas
The trouble with the maples
And they're quite convinced they're right
They say the oaks are just too lofty
And they grab up all the light
But the oaks can't help their feelings
If they like the way they're made
And they wonder why the maples
Can't be happy in their shade?
There is trouble in the forest
And the creatures all have fled
As the maples scream 'oppression!'
And the oaks, just shake their heads
So the maples formed a union
And demanded equal rights
'The oaks are just too greedy
We will make them give us light'
Now there's no more oak oppression
For they passed a noble law
And the trees are all kept equal
By hatchet, axe, and sawBut you can have varying levels of inequality and the extremes are probably not healthy. My suggestion above wouldn't create perfect equality, it just fixes the broken incentives we currently have that reward us for hoarding wealth and penalize us for earning it.
The F-150 is the best selling vehicle in the US, and they're certainly not all going to people in the construction industry.
And $50k/yr is more than enough to save money in most parts of the country. That's a good salary.
What economy doesn't have inequality?
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chartalism [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory
Having taxes to have circulatory value sounds pretty dumb to me.
There is an inherent value to a currency system, and that value amplified by network effects. The government definitely anchors that network (through many mechanisms, not just taxation), but there's still a lot of inertia there regardless.
What other (governmental) mechanisms do you view as anchoring the currency?
Well, the primary reason is that US dollars are declared by government fiat (hence the term) to be "legal tender for all debts public and private". You can't legally refuse to take US dollars (in the United States, obviously ... other countries give their own currencies a similar status). That seems only tangentially related to whether the dollars come from taxes or printing presses.
Government accepting payment for public debts in legal tender... is taxes. They're the first market maker for a fiat currency. It's certainly possible to just run printing presses, but that typically leads to hyperinflation and the replacement of the currency.