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Comment by johnfn | Hacker News Reader

HN is made up of two groups in ever constant warfare, the yin and yang, as it were- the group who thinks that programming should be fun, experimental and enjoyable, and the group that thinks that programming is a means to the end of getting a product to market and nothing more.

Whenever a post from one group (such as the article) comes out, a post from the other (such as OP) will quickly appear. And everyone loves it :)

For what it's worth, I think that both perspectives are valid. It depends only on your goals.

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This is mostly off-topic, but being able to identify or root out the value mismatches between people in a discussion (as you've done) seems like an essential ingredient to productive discussion.

I've noticed that people who can do this are disproportionately better at achieving their goals than those who can't, especially in engineering organizations. Exceptions of course for zealots and revolutionaries.

Wow! This made me think deep thoughts man.

"Observe, this is the beginning of philosophy, a perception of the disagreement of men with one another, and an inquiry into the cause of disagreement, and a condemnation and distrust of that which only `seems', and a certain investigation of that which `seems' whether it `seems' rightly..." - Epictetus, The Discourses.

Absolutely. This even works at a somewhat lower level... I remember hearing an argument between two cow-orkers, and realizing that each was thinking different (but similar!) things, but assuming the other was thinking the same thing. Angriness ensued...

> Angriness ensued...

This usually only happens when one begins to make personal insults, i.e. "only a poor programmer would think that!"..

This skill is one of the key differences that I've noticed among philosophy students (majors) and everyone else, with their skill being far more developed than others'.

I'm not sure if persons with the skill are more disposed towards studying philosophy or the study of philosophy prompts the development and demonstration of that skill more, but hang out with the philosophy kids and you might come to refine this skill by social osmosis.

The yin and yang becomes more amusing when you think that the site's title suggests an appeal to the first group: the techies for whom this is a passion.

Yet it would not exist without the second group because it was started by an investment fund/startup incubator.

I agree with you, I love both perspectives and the passions they ignite. I am squarely in the first group, and I love reading about the real life realities of product design/management, pitching, etc.

I don't think these are mutually exclusive. At work, my goal is to create products that people use (and pay for). At home, my goal is to learn and have fun. Different approaches for different contexts.

This is not specific to programming, but personalities in general. There are people who love the journey and others who love the destination.

People rarely switch from one to the other. It's part of our core ideals.

However, there is a large, vocal, percentage from both these groups that will always voice their opinion against an opposition opinion. It's not a competition and there's no correct answer. It's purely subjective.

The quote. "We agree to disagree".

Or else.

War begins!

I think its embedded into the "maker" mindset in general and does not necessarily have to be one way or the other. It's both.

A writer can have lots of poetry, personal expository essays, journals, unfinished drafts lying around OR s/he can "ship" a best-selling novel, publish a high-traffic blog or something.

Similarly, a painter would experiment with lots of techniques, colors, textures "on the side," again having lots of personal work lying around, yet would probably treat something s/he would put in an exhibition differently.

In the first case, you are experimenting, discovering, breathing; while in the second case you have to think hard about your audience, your readers, or your customers.

It's built-in.

A writer can have lots of poetry, personal expository essays, journals, unfinished drafts lying around OR s/he can "ship" a best-selling novel, publish a high-traffic blog or something.

There are also writers who can do all of these: my personal favourite is Robert Graves (possibly because once many years ago I got him to autograph his Selected Poems and his memoir Goodbye to all That).

And then there is everyone else in between, including me who both want programming to be fun and enjoyable and on the other hand simultaneously care about getting a product to market.

yeah but those don't make for interesting articles or discussions

There are two groups of people on HN: people that think everything is binary and people that think everything is a continuum.

I'm somewhere in the middle.

It's the same group of people, they just may be in different moods at different times.

I was going to say the same thing. I've frequently argued both for the ruthless pragmatism of just-get-it-shipped and for self-indulgent exploration.

Wow!!! this captures the essence of "Two schools of Thought" on Programming, the YIN and the YANG !!!!

> HN is made up of two groups in ever constant warfare, the yin and yang, as it were-

> the group who thinks that programming should be fun, experimental and enjoyable, and

> the group that thinks that programming is a means to the end of getting a product to market and nothing more.

> For what it's worth, I think that both perspectives are valid. It depends only on your goals.

There are things in-between, too - Enjoy the fun software development process to make an end product successful! And this is exactly my own feeling and goal, though I'm not doing it very well as of now ;)

Yup, that's the yin and yang of programming. Programming is an art, but real artists ship.

Yep, but artists don't ship every single portrait their made. Often, they experiment and they made practice

The yin and yang. I love it. :)

WOW :)

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