Houston’s Mayor Was Right to Not Evacuate
mobile.nytimes.com
mobile.nytimes.com
The concept of a city-wide evacuation is, well, I'll be charitable and call it ignorant. Flooding here is nowhere near systematic enough for that to make sense. This is important to understand: the city remains largely intact and functional. The water's good, the power's on, the internet is on, two thirds of the grocery stores are open, emergency services are doing a great job, and some very large percentage of the city is just waiting for the damned rain to stop and the roads to clear to get back to normal.
It's just not a wide-scale evacuation scenario. And I know what those look like. And so does the Mayor.
Win power? I hope not. Who would want any of those two choices. As for implied hate, well... I think Antifa is proving Jung's enantiodromia true:
http://i.imgur.com/h1gpoI1.jpg
>even China's Communists are authoritarian capitalists who have retained the old brand name.
That one is a little more nuanced than you present. They are communists except for some big areas of the economic system. However, there are many areas where they have not departed. How the party is run, how the country is organized and governed, how the people are controlled, 5-year plans, etc.
Do you have any evidence linking those accounts to Antifa? Or any indication that they're Antifa? I might be missing it but I can't see anything in that image which justifies you linking it to Antifa...
I agree. I'm against both. My point is that there is no threat of that from the left right now, but perhaps the largest threat from the right since WWII. Antifa has no chance of gaining political power anywhere much less having advocates in the White House and other national capitals.
> >even China's Communists are authoritarian capitalists who have retained the old brand name.
> That one is a little more nuanced than you present. They are communists except for some big areas of the economic system. However, there are many areas where they have not departed. How the party is run, how the country is organized and governed, how the people are controlled, 5-year plans, etc.
I don't know if I agree. They remain authoritarians (maybe becoming totalitarians) in those regards; they use the same structures that were used by Communists when they were ascendant in China and worldwide; but I'm not sure what is particularly Communist about all of that in the political ideological sense. I do know that Xi was reviving some of the ideological language, but that seemed more like a tool of obedience than something anyone took seriously. Capitalist authoritarians took over the Communist machine and decided it was easier to use the legacy tech. But maybe you know something I don't ...
See the difference?
The scenarios I've seen people called Nazis, it was a matter of calling a spade a spade. What would you call a "conservative" who has swastika tattoos, a propensity to shout "hail victory" and re-enacting Nazi torch ceremonies? If you consider these folk the standard-bearers for conservatives, I think this says more of you than the people calling Nazis by their name.
You are being disingenuous if you are suggesting that the Nazi label is being applied to anything more than the (seeming ascendant) far right fringe.
It's unfortunate because people in the middle, who will now get skewered for being fence sitters will be more likely to vote against the antifa types who are trying really hard to antagonize.
Show your sources.
> Black people ho support Trump or Latinos supporting trump's immigration policies are getting lumped into the same group.
Show your sources.
> it's as if anyone who doesn't agree with their world view is a nazi.
Show your sources.
Gonna need some more before GP's comment is even vaguely accurate.
it's always a problem no matter who does it; I abhor it from the left too. But consider that it's unlikely to be 'equal' at any point in time between different groups in a fast-changing political landscape.
My main point is that the difference between the groups is not ordinary people on Twitter, but high-profile leaders, even national leaders, are doing it on the right; Obama did not act like Trump in that regard; the UK foreign minister and the leader of Hungary, among others, openly advocate white supremacy. Also in the media: Read Wall St Journal editorials, which go out of their way to demonize (and dehumanize) those on the left; it's in almost every one, it seems.
But I agree; let's oppose it everywhere.
This is the best example of Psychological Projection that I have seen all week.
Perhaps I should have written: There's a serious problem that large numbers of conservative leaders and elite engage in demonization and dehumanization of others, to the point where it has become normalized, acceptable political discourse for them.
Major catastrophes like Andrew and Katrina are black swans. Nobody predicts the level of devastation ahead of time. It's usually hindisght, like "it was so obvious!". Therefore, I think it's ignorant to not at least advise people to evacuate at some point. Maybe not 2 hours before the storm hits. Days maybe? They always do advise evacuation of coastal regions here in FL. I always listen too.
And we could not have advised people to evacuate days ahead. Thursday morning, it was just a tropical storm. Suddenly, around lunchtime, it was a category 3 and my business launched business continuity planning procedures. By the end of the day, it was a cat 4. It made landfall the next day. Evacuation would have only put those people outdoors when the storm hit.
Related news: a levee south of Houston was just breached. https://twitter.com/BrazoriaCounty/status/902539081841827842
Of course, you now get the opposite problem. My brother-in-law's neighborhood now has a mandatory evacuation. But now nobody can get out, because the roads are already covered...
But Harvey was not a direct hurricane hit, and Houston is not coastal. Houston is what it is because it's far enough inland to be reasonably hurricane resistant. And Harvey landed 200 miles away and nobody knew what it would do afterwards, just that it would do it slowly. That's not a situation where you order evacuations. Frankly there's very few situations where Houston can and should be evacuated.
The local (and regional!) response has in my opinion been excellent. Loss of life has been very low. It's not over yet, but I've seen single-day flooding events that have been deadlier. Economic damage will be extremely high, but there's really not much to be done about that.
It was a a nightmare experience that should always be avoided.
They should shut down inbound highways and use both sides for routing traffic out of the affected area. They should keep the breakdown lanes free of all obstructions to allow shuttles to have bi-directional traffic. Don't tow, or repair, personal vehicles that break down, shove them off the paved surface and put the people on the shuttles. Etc...
Outbound traffic, properly routed, can be done quite rapidly. It takes cooperation and isn't very polite. It's also going to be a political disaster if the emergency turns out to have not been as bad as expected.
Spot on. The evacuation for Hurricane Rita turned out not to have been necessary, because the storm's actual impact on Houston was miniscule.
Err... I modeled traffic, up to and including disaster plans.
I was in Tropical Storm Allison in Houston. Within a few hours that I was at a concert, we went from light rain to the nearby freeway exit being 20 feet under water. We spent the night in a medical office building because we could find any passable route out of a 2 mile radius. My car was swept away into a drainage ditch and filled with water.
People are better off staying home or moving to a nearby high-ground area. Than riding out a hurricane in a car in traffic.
Miami Metro pop: https://www.google.com/search?q=miami+metro+population&rlz=1...
https://www.google.com/search?q=houston+metro+pop&rlz=1C1CHB...
5.5 million vs. 6.5 million. Quite comparable. (can't just look at city limits for pop numbers)
You're familiar with the story of The Boy Who Cried Wolf?
That train could evacuate 15K people a day.
Imagine if each state maintained one of those trains. In a crisis, Texas could borrow trains from NM, OK, KS, LA, AR, MS, and AL. They could move a combined ~120K people per day (no pets).
Planning ahead a week and beginning the evacuation 3 days before the storm, you could move 360K people. That would leave only 4.6 million in Houston.
[1]http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/28/546721363/...
The headline has a question mark at the end; that's the extent of the "questioning". The rest of it lists every point made to support the decision to stay. It even notes at the end that both FEMA[1] and the state government not only refused to question the mayor's decision but backed it.
It's not a critical story, and it's disingenuous to suggest that simply because "even NPR" ran an explainer story, that there's some widespread official or credible base of observers "questioning the present stance".
[1] Literally:
> The head of FEMA, Brock Long, "did not question the decision," Reuters reports.
>But at some point, of course, those floodwaters do become deadly. If lower floors flood completely, Houston's Office of Emergency Management cautioned, residents should never take refuge in the attic unless they have a way out. They could risk being fatally trapped.
> Attempting to drive through flooded streets is a common cause of death during heavy rainstorms.
Basically, you are damned if you stay and damned if you drive. Maybe building a float from furniture would work, but I think the Office of Emergency Management knows better than random internet commenters how to handle a flood.
[1]http://www.npr.org/2017/08/29/546978194/with-much-of-houston...
This is the problem with the transportation infrastructure here in the US. In Japan those trains could easily make 100-200 round trips a day. And there would be a bajillion other train routes to other cities as well.
Seriously, trains? Between two neighboring major cities? Three times a day? That's laughable at best in most parts of the world.
Tokyo's station serves 3000 trains daily and some 415K passengers per day as of 2013.
The Chinese high-speed rail system also deals with similar levels of passenger traffic. Shanghai's Hongqiao station for instance has no less than 30 tracks, can hold 10K passengers at the same time, and comfortably serves an average of 210K passengers per day (much more on holidays), and it is only one of a few railway stations serving the area.
Trains scale well if you do them right. Technology has come a long way.
That's what life would look like if people in the US actually used trains on a regular basis.
In any case, all I'm saying is that if a massive number of people need to be moved, trains can scale well, additional reserve capacity can be deployed during evacuations, and it's also a lot safer than having hundreds of thousands of people taking to the roads in bad weather.
Tokyo is crammed and that's why trains work great over there. They wouldn't work in US city with suburban sprawl.
But let's take your numbers: 415K passengers per day. Let's keep the same three day evacuation period. That's ~1.2 million people. Leaving 5 million in Houston.
Here's the point: Evacuating millions of people over a weekend is a gargantuan task. Magic words like "train", "plane", or "automobile" don't instantly solve the problem.
If the demand isn't there, why spend untold billions filling it?
For most of the US, and especially a city built like Houston, there are no good options.
Edit: I underestimated the size of the Houston Metro Area. It's closer to 100 miles by 100 miles.
There's a station in Beaumont, which is closer than San Antonio.
That said, it's still not enough to even come close to evacuating a city like Houston.
The tricks are getting people to that loading point (without their cars, because you don't have enough parking for what you're trying to do), and getting the trains from that point to out of town without having to cross a flooded area.
Houston has plenty of tracks. I presume it has flat areas next to tracks. Getting out of town without having to cross flooding? I don't know. Enough tracks to hold the traffic that would be needed? Probably not.
2) There aren't many train lines, passenger trains, and most of the lines are inaccessible to most of the city.
3) There are not many buses in the city as the city is hugely sprawled out so public transportation is weak.
However, even if Rita happened to a city like say Boston, with strong public transportation options, the disaster would be pretty similar. The traffic infrastructure just isn't there to transport 6 million+ people no matter what vehicle.
Because the cost to not be in it is enormous.
[1] https://www.cms.gov/research-statistics-data-and-systems/sta...
Enormous compared to the value provided.
> We spend 3.2 trillion a year on Medicare
No, we don't. As your own source says, it is only $646 billion on Medicare, and $3.2 trillion a year in total combined public and private healthcare expenditures.
> Imagine if just 1K per person per year (300B) was spent on infrastructure every year to make mass evacuations over a few days possible.
Then it still probably wouldn't be enough, and we'd get a lot more value for nearly doubling infrastructure spending [0] if we spent it on something else.
[0] $416 billion/year in 2014, https://www.cbo.gov/publication/52463
We see the flooding issue right now--an evacuation would have killed far more people.
A dirty bomb? Once the bomb goes off you will have plenty of time to evacuate where you need to. Keeping radioactivity contained would be more problematic than removing people.
A biological agent? You want to quarantine rather than evacuate.
A fire? San Diego showed how to deal with that--phased evacuations ahead of the actual fire path.
Earthquake? Well, once it's done you have plenty of time to evacuate.
I can't really think of anything that would affect something the size of Houston simultaneously.
I'd disagree here. Many major cities in the world could probably get this done. I guess you could get London evacuated within a day just by trains if you plan accordingly. And that'll be the case for most European cities as well as many in Asia. It's just US cities which have little to no public transport (except for NYC).
Except the Houston metro area is physically larger than that part of the Netherlands (the populations are close enough to the same).
Even equating civility, which is not the case, between the NL and TX, there's literally no public transport available, period. Roads are not an option (just check any daily commute between say Montrouse and Katy).
Houston is a dead trap in events like this, with no recourse available other than holing up and hoping it's not your time.
Evacuation or not, I'm sure to leave the city at the slightest sign of heavy rain, and I haven't regretted so far.
Source: I lived in both places for the last ten years.
I do wonder how long it would actually take to move 3-5 million people ~500 km though. Quite a project.
If each bus made 10 trips, that's still 10K buses.
If you assigned each bus to one of 100 evacuation depots around the city, that's 100 buses per depot.
It would take a remarkable team to manage a depot like that, and you would need 100 such teams. Plus 30K drivers. Plus refueling logistics. Plus pit crews.
"Just put them on buses" is easy to write and enormously hard to pull off.
How many in low lying, flood prone areas?
You think so, eh? What percentage of drivers do you think would show up, given that many of their families would be in danger themselves?
[1]http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/08/28/546721363/...
[1]http://www.npr.org/2017/08/29/546978194/with-much-of-houston...
Or alternatively, legally require flood insurance in at risk areas and let actuaries price the risk, problem solved.
If the bad half of global warming predictions happen, this sort of thing is going to be common. If people don't have a motivation to mitigate the risk, everyone is going to have to pay for it collectively.
BUT, that’s not the case. So enacting the requirement now, all at once, is probably not the right thing to do.
Maybe phase it in? All new construction would require it. Existing residents would get it subsidized for a decade, etc?
The expected cost also potentially brings down the price of realestate so people can afford insurance by paying less morgage.
Really it comes down to acceptable societal risk. If floods are a 1 in 100 years black swan, do we bail them out and don’t require insurance? What if it’s every 20 years? Once in 5 years?
At some point we can all agree that maybe it shouldn’t be treated as unexpected and precautions should be required. Just like we require everyone to have car insurance.
I'm fine with that, but it all depends on what you mean by "bail them out," which feels a bit loaded.
But an event that happens once in 4-5 generations is still rare.
One thing I would prioritize at a policy level is making sure that developers are not able to run in front of flood controls and profit by building in unprotected areas without paying for much of the flood control.
We pay for 1 in 100 years. Sure.
What about 1 in 20? Maybe
1 in 10? Uhhh
1 in 5?
Let's look at some stats. The east coast gets devastated by some hurricane or another about every 5 years right? Like absolutely trashed. Other years it gets milder hurricanes.
At what point do we require hurricane insurance of everyone near the Atlantic Ocean? Or at least some sort of federal hurricane tax. We KNOW it’s going to hit some part of the coast super hard every small number of years. Why are we so surprised every time?
I mean, look at this wikipedia page on hurricanes in the US[1]. For the past 160 years we've had between 10 and 25 hurricanes hit land every decade. That's an average of 1 to 2.5 hurricanes PER YEAR.
Why are we so surprised every time?
Something that happens every year is not a rare event.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_hurrican...
Or at least some sort of federal hurricane tax
We already have this. Federal income taxes are what's used to fund FEMA, which admittedly only handles one aspect of a complex disaster, but if I take your point correctly it would provide a narrowing of the issues.
This doesn't solve the problems associated with large scale evacuations; unless your plan is based on the you leaving, while most of the population stays.
>Or alternatively, legally require flood insurance in at risk areas and let actuaries price the risk, problem solved.
Flood insurance could guard against the financial damage of a storm, but is useless to address the problems that evacuations are meant to address: human life. Unless your plan is for flood insurance to drive down the population in the region; which might work long term, but we still need to figure out how to handle the situation until then.
>If the bad half of global warming predictions happen.
This is the bad half of global warming predictions. The only question left is how bad the even worse half will be.'\
>If people don't have a motivation to mitigate the risk, everyone is going to have to pay for it collectively.
Why wouldn't people have motivation to fix it? Aid is not going to be enough to compensate for all the damages (not event counting indirect economic damage). Everyone, from individuals, to municipalities, to the state, to the federal government, will come out of this in the red.
>This doesn't solve the problems associated with large scale evacuations; unless your plan is based on the you leaving, while most of the population stays.
There's also the issue of having the means to be able to evacuate. Time off work (without pay for a large part of the population), alternative housing, food, travel expenses, for what may or may not end up being a big storm can be out of reach for many people.
You don't see how having millions of people evacuate over a period of 48 hours vs 6 makes the problem less severe?
It does if legally required - the point isn't to finance the evacuation, it's to make living in a flood plain financially unattractive. It's the "let the market decide" approach to disaster planning, by pricing in the cost of disaster instead of externalizing it to FEMA and the Red Cross.
That doesn't establish that it isn't priced in. It establishes that the value people place on their own lives isn't as high as you think it should be.
No one will be able to afford it, so it will end up being subsidized by the Govt. Like requiring a 70 year old with cancer to get life insurance after years of treatments.
That's assuming that people can afford to leave. I read a quite interesting comment on reddit this morning:
https://np.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/6wcpt0/la_vita_bella_n...
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/congres...
There's also nothing stopping you from applying the principal in whatever style you prefer.
It is happening in areas hit by Sandy. Other flood-resistant features include raising utility equipment (HVAC, water heaters...) off the ground.
https://www.google.com/maps/@28.232837,-82.7539839,3a,75y,27...
Why not flood safe high altitude structures?
They could be used for other things in normal conditions, much like how subway stations are used as bomb shelters.
The National Flood Insurance program is paying the same people 30% of the time to repeatedly rebuild their homes in flood prone areas.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/08/congres...
But since it's being paid for by insurance, we are going to get houses on raised platforms.
Except that some of the roads people spent 24h on are now deep under water. So you can imagine a real disaster as millions of stuck people were overrun.
1. Hurricanes are fickle, and prediction models for when and where it will make landfall are historically poor until 24-48 hours ahead.
2. People get tired of evacuating all the time during busy season, watching the hurricane turn 90 degrees off the predicted path 12 hours before landfall to hit an uninhabited stretch, and then quit paying attention.
An evacuation isn't just throwing people and valuables in a car and going. It means boarding up windows, moving everyday valuables to higher places, making lodging arrangements, figuring out pets (either finding a place that welcomes them or abandoning them to almost certain death), keeping kids on track with their studies, keeping track of immediate and extended family members elsewhere in the path, and doing all of it with a decent chance that nothing -- not one thing -- worth evacuating happens.
And that's just if you own a car, or aren't in a nursing home, or aren't the caretaker for someone with special needs, or disabled, or homeless, or don't work a job that expects to you show up until the last minute and come back to work the moment the order is lifted (or better yet, get exempted from post-disaster curfews and require employees to return to powerless and waterless flooded homes so they can go back to work), or are simply too poor to afford the gas and lodging elsewhere.
And that's only if there's one of these in a year. 2005 had two of these in a month (Katrina and Rita). I lived in Lake Charles (near Rita's landfall) and Lafayette (dead center between where Rita made landfall and where Katrina made landfall). I evacuated four times in two years, once for Rita and three times for storms with other names I've long since buried in my memory, and in three of those four evacuations _nothing detrimental happened in my absence_. I lost money from missing work and paying for a hotel, with no means of claiming either from insurance -- insurance that barely covered a quarter of my damages from the one time something bad did happen, when my apartment was looted and vandalized for Rita.
My life is more important than my stuff, that's obvious. A disruption in my life is better than the end of it. But not everyone can afford the disruption. During Rita, I was making $10/hour on $400/month rent and had no more than $1,000 in my bank account, most of which went to paying for lodging for myself or family members. The only reason I could cover that last month of rent in the looted apartment that was uninhabitable for a month afterward was because I worked for a company that had an early return permit.
During the Rita evacuation, my grandmother slipped and fell in an overcrowded nursing home miles from home. She broke her hip and hit her head. She died a couple of years later in a nursing home, having developed rapidly deteriorating dementia from the head injury; she'd been independent prior to the Rita evacuation, and was never independent or coherent again.
If she'd stayed home, nothing would have happened. Her house lost some shingles but was otherwise untouched.
Not coincidentally, my parents never evacuated from another storm again.
I moved to the west coast after I'd had enough from the 2007 storms, but they stayed in south Louisiana. They didn't ever consider leaving for this one, even when the 48-hour projection had them potentially in the worst northeastern quadrant. Right now, they're sitting under a band of heavy rain and getting online every 4 hours or so to check in, and only when they feel comfortable bringing their computer and router down from the attic. The generator they got a decade ago was flooded in the last storm, which put water up to floor level but didn't get into the house. This one's on pace to flood them.
They've watched storm after storm come through with the same hype from forecasters and officials that they've heard for six decades. They just don't care anymore. Leaving is as bad to them as staying. Leaving has killed more of our family than staying.
A five-day evacuation plan would be logistically ideal. A three-day-evac for 1 million plus shelters and support for the rest would be better.
But nobody who lives there for any significant length of time will buy into any of it. The odds of winning the gamble of staying and weathering an underwhelming rainy day or two instead of the hyped-up disaster are too high. The cost of losing that gamble can be practically indistinguishable from the cost of evacuation, and everybody hears about those stories of loss for what winds up being nothing.
had this been India, the opponent of the Mayor would have politicized the situation and asked for resignation of the mayor and claimed that it was a mistake to not evacuate.
There's plenty of nasty stuff in US politics as well. This article is refreshing.
This is the relevant part of the article: "Attempting to evacuate areas that might be affected by localized flooding because of rainfall is an entirely different problem from evacuating areas in danger of flooding by storm surge, the rise in seawater level caused by a storm’s winds pushing water onshore. We can predict with reasonable accuracy what areas will be flooded by storm surge based on the forecast and elevations. But flooding from rainfall is highly unpredictable and variable based on the dynamics of each particular rain event. Rarely will we know days in advance which areas will be flooded."
But I suppose what ruins any ability to rely on "the first law of hydrology" here is the fact that the whole area is so flat, and so low, and so paved.
What happens when a disaster that's 10x or 100x bigger comes?
Of course, denial that burning carbon fuels can cause climate change including more powerful hurricanes was one of the cornerstones of the president of the USA's campaign. Texas voted for him in a big way.
None of these things stopped the storm from wacking them and Louisiana though. As Richard Feynman once said, nature cannot be fooled.
Trump just announced the feds are sending federal aid and support to Texas. The governor and president are both fighting to expand these disasters, then we the taxpayers have to bail them out.
Is it not the fact that too much building occurred in FEMA-designated flood zones? That too much paving substantially reduced the amount of available land to absorb flood waters? That draining of wetlands seriously harmed the ability of flood waters to subside?
Let's not water down the risk of climate change by attributing disasters to it when the primary causes were unrelated.
> Is it clear that climate change is responsible for the extent of the damage?
That's highly odd way to phrase the question.
Climate change is responsible for more energy in the oceans, which is responsible for more, bigger, storms. Bigger storms mean more damage per storm. Climate and weather are different. The climate changing in a manner that makes the weather more extreme will always contribute to damage, but will never be "responsible" for it as it will always be the weather causing the damage...
So: this is the third "once in 500 years" event in 3 years. That is what "climate change" looks like. These storms "suddenly" popping up? Climate change means more of that, as we have been seeing and can demonstrate statistically. The long term prognosis? Thanks to climate change it's worse, with these rare events becoming ever more frequent, and the extent of damages growing over time.
Our climate is provably changing, from human activity. This is very clear. Barring holodecks there are no primary causes for weather than climate... Change that climate away from what our society is adapted for and expect pain.
This story has also been in the NYT, as I recall:
> Tomball, Texas, Public Works director David Esquivel told a local paper there this year that the Houston area had “two 500-year storms back to back”: over Memorial Day weekend of 2015 and early April 2016. That means that Hurricane Harvey constitutes the third “500-year” flood in three years.
Rare meteorological events do not correlate to large scale disasters, per se. They only reflect the probability of the underlying event happening in any given year. Imagine that your nearest creek "flooding" by 2 inches should only happen every thousand years, for example.
> We've got catostrophic storms going back every decade. Donna, Hugo, Andrew, Katrina, Harvey...none of this is new.
Aaaaand here's the fundamental confusion with those kinds of summaries: what is the difference between speed and acceleration?
We have always had bad weather. Having more bad weather than before, more frequently, is the issue. Climate change did not invent the hurricane. Climate change ensures our hurricanes will be bigger, more frequent, and more likely to combine with other larger, more frequent, weather systems. See Sandy, for example.
The past decade has been pretty lull as far as hurricanes go in the Atlantic and Caribbean. We haven't seen closer to the activity that they saw in the 50s and 60s in my lifetime.
The "number of hurricanes" is irrelevant. Arguably it is misleading: many small hurricanes is much more human friendly than a few monster hurricanes. Climate predictions are solid on more intense hurricanes that last longer, have more rainfall in the short term, and additionally increase with (mild) frequency in the decades to come.
At the same time, hurricanes are a specific weather incident with no reflection on the broader climate (monsoons, tropical storms, cyclones, Pacific/atlantic differences, el ninos, etc etc).
At the same same time changing the goalposts of the conversation from number of "once in 500 years" to "how many hurricanes" is in-congruent. As I pointed out: rare events do not directly correlate to extreme events.
TBH: climate trolls and sceptics on the net really need to up their game. This stuff was played out in the 90s. Any information anyone is honestly missing on this topic is readily available in google, so at this point one has to assume that ignorance is willful.