Comment by jaclaz | Hacker News Reader

Comment by jaclaz | Hacker News Reader

Clickbaity title.

Original: Environmental impacts of food consumption by dogs and cats

Anyway,it's not like the article seems like being a particularly good one, while it cites the concept that meat fed to pets is (largely) not suitable for human consumption, doesn't take into account the actual related impact and vaguely talks of post-processing the non-suitable parts.

The IMHO terrible part is this one:

>And much pet food probably is already edible and serves as a potential source of protein as a food of last resort; there are reports, both official and unofficial, of impoverished Americans eating pet food as a necessary supplement to their diet [55–57, 58, 59]. At any rate, the trend toward premium pet food with more animal products that Americans would recognize as edible indicates that pets are eating animal products that could also be eaten by humans and that there is direct competition with the human food system for ingredients in some of these products [10].

TL;DR: Your cat and/or dog is probably too fat, and you should somehow feel bad about it.

> meat fed to pets is (largely) not suitable for human consumption

30% unsuitable for human consumption? This choosiness is a just one more sign of affluence and one of the habits we have to get rid of if we want to improve our ecological footprint.

Go to a rural village in a developing country and you will see them using 95% easily.

This is just

Yeah, more hot dogs.

>Go to a rural village in a developing country and you will see them using 95% easily.

Using 95%? Sure.

Eating 95%? Come on.

We will have to define what is "meat", in pets food a lot of parts of the animal that wouldn't be considered "meat" are used.

And there are some Laws/rules about some parts not being fit for human consumption (of course depending on the country).

If you boil meat to make broth and then throw out the chunks after some hours, you have pulled most of the nutrients into the broth. So, yeah, I would say they use most of the animal.

The choosiness is also culture-dependent.

I have eaten pig feet, pig stomach, shark fin, unidentifiable organs and very bony meat at somewhat upscale restaurants in China. I'm sure there are some foods that are seen as basically inedible in China, but those do not necessarily coincide with Western tastes.

A lot of this is probably influenced by perceptions of "poor-people food" (like lobster) instead of being based in human nutritional needs. My Chinese friend was surprised when I remarked on the great taste of grilled pig liver, since it was the least expensive of the dishes he had me try out.

> A lot of this is probably influenced by perceptions of "poor-people food" (like lobster)

Since when is lobster considered a "poor-people food"? That is the exact impression I get when it's the most expensive entree on most menus.

It was until the mid-19th century.

Prior to this time, lobster was considered a mark of poverty or as a food for indentured servants or lower members of society in Maine, Massachusetts, and the Canadian Maritimes. It has been suggested servants specified in employment agreements that they would not eat lobster more than twice per week, however there is no evidence for this. Lobster was also commonly served in prisons, much to the displeasure of inmates. American lobster was initially deemed worthy only of being used as fertilizer or fish bait, and until well into the 20th century, it was not viewed as more than a low-priced canned staple food. [0]

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lobster

Oysters too

Whoa, is pig's feet supposed to be an example of an "inedible" food? Some people in my family love that stuff.

   > and one of the habits we have to get rid of if we
   > want to improve our ecological footprint.

A much, much bigger improvement (reduction) of humanity's ecological footprint would be for everyone to go vegan two days a week. That would potentially have a ~25% reduction in the number of animals reared and used, and would bring a commensurate decrease in ecological footprint. I think that's a worthy goal.

Disclaimer: I eat meat, but not very often now. I sometimes take milk in tea, but mostly drink green tea and water now. The rest of the time, I follow an Engine 2 diet[1].

[1]: https://www.engine2diet.com

So 25% reduction in meat I use by not eating it myself vs. not feeding it to a dog. Excuse me, but I can't see a difference here.

>> Your cat and/or dog is probably too fat

Slightly above 50% of US pet dogs and cats are overweight.

So, on average, they're in better shape than their owners.

https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statisti...

I know my dogs are. They get lean meat and veggies and very few empty sugars and carbohydrates. They're lean and in excellent health for their age. Me? Very much the opposite.

Probably the ones that arent getting premium pet food

Nah pet weight is all quantity and table scraps. Limit scraps and measure well and your pet will be the correct weight. So much easier than my diet. Wish someone measured my portions.

I take care of people's dogs for extra income. There are two primary reasons that my clients' dogs are overweight. The first group don't monitor their dog's weight or how much it eats. "Just keep some food in the bowl so he doesn't get hungry." The second group derive pleasure from feeding their dog, provide expensive meals for it and, in their enthusiasm, end up overfeeding.

For cats, the corn, grain, and otherwise carb-filled cat foods that dominate store shelves and are cheaply available are absolutely terrible. Cats are obligate carnivores and aren't built to deal with that kind of food composition at all. Some cats deal with it better than others, but generally feeding your cat these cheap foods will result in it becoming very obese and highly prone to several types of disease.

I don't go as far as some pet owners, buying frozen pet food from Whole Foods and the like, but I do buy my cat high quality meat-based grain-free dry cat food. It's a little pricey but a 9lb cat eating proper amounts of protein doesn't eat much and a large bag lasts a long time. Just make sure to get a good airtight container to keep the food in.

+1 for airtight container. We had cheaped out on this and just purchased some cheaper plastic Rubbermaid-style containers -- to my wife's horror, she opened it one day to find maggots. She was sicker than the dog ever was (the dog didn't get sick and we threw that container out wholesale, food and all).

We purchased an airtight "food container" with a screw-on lid -- from a major pet store chain, and for some absurd amount of money -- but haven't had an issue sense, and the peace of mind was well worth it for my wife's sake.

One thing that can help a lot is to give dogs and cats more vegetables. In particular, they love brassicas, especially brussels sprouts and broccoli. Either mixed in with their regular food or as a treat, it helps fill them up with very few calories - and really good for them too.

If you haven't tried this, I recommend it. Simply microwave some brussels sprouts or broccoli until tender, let cool, and either chop it up, add a little water, and mix into their food, or else take the sprouts and slice them in quarters as a treat.

With broccoli, they like the stems more than the heads. Sweeter and less pungent.

When I give them the sprouts as a treat, the dogs get the quartered sprouts, and the cats like to have me peel off a leaf and tear it into pieces for them. I sit down on the kitchen floor, the dogs line up, and the cats muscle in between them and sit on my legs to get their share. (That's why I sit down, so they don't climb my legs!)

I've had a couple of people tell me, "You must be kidding. Dogs and cats don't like vegetables, they want meat!" They change their mind when they see how our dogs and cats respond to the brussels sprouts.

BTW, if you are used to steaming brussels sprouts for yourself when you don't do something fancier with them, I highly recommend microwaving instead. It cooks them evenly, unlike steaming which ruins the outside by the time the inside is done. Rinse them first - the bit of water avoids burning - and undercook them a little because they continue to cook when you take them out. A microwaved brussels sprout dipped in hummus is a tasty treat. (For people, not for the pets! The garlic wouldn't be good for them.)

Update: I didn't expect this to spark quite such a discussion, but thank you everyone for the replies - I learned some things here. Rest assured that I only give the cats a small amount of the brussels sprouts - the dogs get more.

Our dog absolutely loves carrots -- if you dare to eat a carrot near him, you won't hear the end of it until he's had one too.

We stopped making homemade (meat) treats for him in favor of just keeping a baggie of small carrots in the fridge. It's still hilarious to me, but he just goes crazy for them, time and time again. I'm not sure if it's just the crunch, or maybe the 'social factor' of him watching my wife eat them, but he truly adores a healthy carrot snack/treat. =)

My parents had a dog that would go out to the garden and dig up carrots to eat. They thought it was varmints until they caught him doing it.

Our Pit Bull/Mastiff mix will come running when he hears a cereal bowl being filled. That would be because when cereal is served, odds are there's fruit going on top of it. That dog is a hound for bananas, but he'll settle for peaches. It's blackberry season here in Seattle, so he gets a handful or two on our walks. Broccoli, brussel sprouts, I don't recall that we've found anything yet that he won't eat. Makes for low-calorie snacks to put in his Kong.

Occasional greens are OK for cats, but do NOT feed them carbohydrates; and especially do not feed them carbs regularly. Cats are obligate carnivores, and the grains that are common in cheap pet food contribute to kidney disease.

Dogs yeah, they're omnivores as far as I understand.

Cats though are straight up carnivore, and while they might enjoy the taste of some veggies, and some stuff can help with their digestion, they don't really get much nutrients out of vegetables, and a large portion of veggies are downright harmful to them.

Cats are obligate carnivores.

Dogs are carnivores. They need protein, fat and bone.

incorrect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog#Diet

What is incorrect? I implied that they're not obligate by contrasting them with cats.

They forage when in a fasted state.

And no, they have no carbohydrate requirement. Yes they'll eat it. They have some omnivorous capability. So do wolves, clearly carnivores though.

Teeth, digestive system and behaviour clearly show this.

How do wolves get calcium? Bone.

Dogs needing bone is incorrect. Plant sources can meet all their food requirements. But the science around if plants can form an ideal diet isn't clear currently (similar to humans).

Not sure why you are bringing wolves into this.

> Not sure why you are bringing wolves into this.

I'm guessing you're trying to trap me into saying the following:

Why? Because they are direct descendants of the gray wolf.

> Dogs needing bone is incorrect. Plant sources can meet all their food requirements.

They cannot live on a purely protein based (i.e. only meat) diet. They need organ meat and bone as well.

Saying that they cannot live on meat alone is a very weak "they are omnivores" argument. So I make sure to add where they can get their micro-nutrients. A whole prey model is the carnivorous model.

Whether you can substitute that with a plant based model and have them survive is arbitrary. I did not claim that they are obligate carnivores. They will forage when starving and survive, cats will not.

> Dogs needing bone is incorrect.

Bone gives them calcium and most of the other minerals that they require. So yes, what bones give them is something they absolutely require. Can it be artificially substituted, yes.

Dogs picked up the ability to use some starches for nutrition around the time humans started to farm. http://www.sciencemag.org/news/2016/11/how-farming-changed-d... Wolves (from which we domesticated dogs) have only a tiny ability to digest starches. Dogs that were bred in mostly hunting communities like the Siberian Husky do not have the ability to digest starches well, same as wolves.

No, just feed them less and exercise them more.

Don't feed carnivores anything but meat if you don't have to. Especially cats.

Also, if your still want to feed them vegetables do so after you've satisfied their dietary needs.

Overfeeding is the problem.

My Mom is a hardcore vegan. She inherited a cat that was unwanted. Mom was not about to feed that cat meat. Despite the comments here, there does exist vegan cat food and my mom fed that cat vegan cat food for the last 10 years of its life. The cat lived to be 19 years old.

TLDR; it's possible for a cat to survive on vegan cat food (even if its not recommended). I know from experience.

If I recall correctly, it was this food: https://www.amazon.com/Ami-Cat-16-5-lbs-7-5kg/dp/B018K4OG9I

The important part is that cats need taurine, an amino acid that only comes in nature from animal protein (the taur- is from the latin word for bull). Cats can not synthesize taurine in their bodies -- if you do not include taurine in your cat's diet, IT WILL DIE.

This food explicitly includes synthetic taurine, which appears to be lab-synthesized so that it does not have to come from animal sources.

Our cats are pretty strict vegans; they've been eating this stuff for about 5 years: http://www.petfoodshop.com/ingredients/

Neither have had any health problems in that time. And their shit smells a lot better than when they would eat the meat-based kibble.

Yes, vegan cat food is fine

Doing it yourself will only kill the animal slowly

>Slightly above 50% of US pet dogs and cats are overweight.

because they are spayed/neutered. We've never limited food consumption by our cats and by our dog and never neutered them, and they have never been overweight.

Is vasectomy bad for health?

Thanks, we've updated it from “Pets consume 30% of all meat products”.

Thank you much!

Philip K. Dick famously ate horse meat prepared as pet food at various times in his life. Whether this was out of necessity or because of preference is open for debate.

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