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Comment by cletus | Hacker News Reader

Honestly this whole situation is so frustrating as a user.

I now have a 2017 MBP and every day I try to hate it a little less but it's hard work. I miss the old keyboard. Touch Bar is gimmicky and I'd be happier without it. Only USB-C is idiotic. No more Magsafe stil kills me. The old trackpad was better.

For years I just wanted a better Macbook Air (ie upgraded display and specs). The 13" MBA was about perfect IMHO. Reasonably cheap and a great form factor. Yet even Apple succumbed to the fatal disease of "adding value" by changing a winning formula. Force Touch lack discovery and is terrible (this is particularly the case for the phones).

Sadly, the alternative (non-Apple laptops) is just so much worse. I have a Dell XPS 15 and it's fine I guess but it's STILL much worse than MBP/OSX.

Why does everything suck?

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For a counter opinion, I could not care less about Magsafe (I thought I would, but I don't miss it). I really do appreciate that I can now hook the MBP into power from any side and port.

I also like the USB-C: bought a few $80 total cables for everything (USB-C HDMI, USB-C to hard disk, USB-C to printer etc) and I no longer need any dongles either (just the respective USB-C to X cable, as I would have used a USB-A to X cable before). $80 is not much when one is talking of a $2000 / $3000 laptop. And increasingly new peripherals will come with direct USB-C support anyway.

The display and brightness and colors is also killer.

And I appreciate the Touch ID very much (1Password, lock screen, payments).

That said: new trackpad is a problem for me, because I tend to touch it as I type (since it's bigger).

And the touch strip I don't care about. I would prefer if it was individual strip of actual buttons (physical) that would light up with images and be customizable (like the Optimus Prime keyboard).

Yes, I'm actually very happy that magsafe is disappearing, never liked it. It tends to fall down when using the laptop on my lap and the only time I've tripped on my cord, my mbp went with it because it managed to somehow pull the cord straight.

I haven't bought a new mbp yet because I'm still waiting for 32 gb (I want VMs and it's just faster working locally than using aws to work)

My biggest problem with Apple is macOS, it went from a good stable OS back in Snow Leopard to a buggy mess that crashes rather often with broken features (mission control takes more than 20s whenever I use it whereas expose was always fast and responsive).

I suspect it's something wrong on your end, I have no lag at all with mission control on a 2015 MBP. I do think however that Apple hasn't been innovating much on macOS for years. All the resources seem to go to iOS.

To be fair I'm using a mbp 2013 and I tend to have a lot of windows opened (usually 50-60). It worked perfectly with expose not with mission control.

>I do think however that Apple hasn't been innovating much on macOS for years.

They have literally done tons of work. They just haven't disturbed the facade.

Heck, in last 3-4 releases there has been a whole new FS, memory compression, transparent internet storage for user files (optimized storage), handoff, system integrity protection and widespread sandboxing, a whole new 3D graphics API (now in its second version, Metal 2), night shift, gatekeeper and path randomization, wide gamut color support, timer coalescing (to save battery), Notification Center, Airplay, Power Nap, etc.

I never tripped over a cable in my life, so for me MagSafe's utility has never been safety, but ease of use — it's just so incredibly easy to plug and unplug. It's also wonderfully easy to share a plug; sitting around a table with a bunch of people, you can see who's fully charged (the green LED, which is gone from the USB-C charger), yank the cable out without them noticing/caring, and plop it into your own MacBook.

With USB-C, you can't see if someone's fully charged, and you can't yank it out without disturbing the other person. The USB-C connector is actually super sticky, and you have to use both hands to get it out.

To be fair, the difference can be measured in seconds, but it's still a step backwards in convenience.

Adding to this: The USB-C cable that Apple ships with is very thick and inflexible, which is also less convenient. I don't know if other power-capable USB-C cables are like that.

USB-C is a wholly terrible idea.

So a USB-C port and cable is capable of one or more of the following:

- Providing power (at different wattages)

- Data transfer of varying speeds

- Display transport

So cables are visibly the same and have a different set of capabilities. For example, Apple's USB-C cables that come with the new Macbooks aren't capable of high speed data transfer. Some cables are capable of charging at 87W. Others much less.

How is this better?

I remember reading one description of this that went something like this: prior to USB-C nothing fit but everything worked. Now everything fits but nothing works.

But consider a practical matter: if each port needs to be capable of power, data transfer and display, it's either going to be more expensive to produce or some ports, like the cables, will have different capabilities with no indication as to why.

Honestly it's just a horrible idea.

EDIT: example of this insanity:

http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/08/15/psa-thunderbolt-3-...

This is what we've wanted since USB first existed: a universal port—it's literally in the name. It's been 20 years in the making and now we finally have it.

The power issue is a minor temporary inconvenience. I did the same as OP and just got a bunch of cables from Cable Matters that cover basically everything. And the USB-C to USB 3.1 Type B on my hub means I don't have to change any desktop accessories. I just changed a single cable and it was compatible with my home setup.

The ability to "upgrade" an accessory just by switching from a 5Gbps cable to a 40Gbps cable is incredible.

Other manufacturers are already following. A year from now the fact that this was ever an issue will seem silly.

I just wish they would scrap Lightning and the 3.5mm and just go 100% USB-C.

>So cables are visibly the same and have a different set of capabilities. For example, Apple's USB-C cables that come with the new Macbooks aren't capable of high speed data transfer. Some cables are capable of charging at 87W. Others much less. How is this better?

Just buy the high speed/high charge capable ones and you're set. That's how it's better.

>I remember reading one description of this that went something like this: prior to USB-C nothing fit but everything worked. Now everything fits but nothing works.

Yeah, I read the same. That's why I stopped reading such things. Now everything works, with USB-C, and I don't have to worry about some writer's hysteria to drum up views.

> Just buy the high speed/high charge capable ones and you're set.

That would seem to be true except for connecting a Thunderbolt 3 monitor. From the parent's linked article:

> Thunderbolt 3 runs longer than 18-inches can be passive or active. The passive ones have lower speed, with the max data rate hitting about 20Gbit/second at two meters of cable length. However, active cables contain transceivers to regulate the data transfer through the cable. At the same two meters, speed is still at the maximum of 40Gbit/second. Passive cables maintain USB 3.1 type-C compatibility. Active ones do not. [emphasis added]

That seems like a valid issue to me, not "hysteria".

From the 5+ different ports we used to have now have (or go towards) only one, with maybe needing to buy a different cable for connecting a thunderbolt 3 monitor.

Still sounds better that what it was to me.

Not to mention that if there's a cable that's stationary and stays at home/office it's the monitor desktop. Unless one regularly takes their 24/27" monitor with them, they can just buy ONCE, the appropriate cable, and live it connected for ever.

It's not like people will mess their monitor cables up while on the road.

I just got a cat and magsafe has saved my 2015 MBP more times than I can count

Did it though, or it just unplugged your laptop?

Because I have a hard time imagining a cat would push enough to bring down a 2kg laptop on a desk.

Except if a dog was hunting it...

I went the opposite way when you bought your MBP - I left the Mac after years and switch to a Surface Book.

I have a mag-safe-like magnetic power port, it's great. I have 10 hour batter life that is incredibly freeing. I have a dedicated GPU, which just seems to make the fan blow. The keyboard is fine except that silver keys are shit dim light compared to black keys. I also have a touch screen which I use a lot and a stylus that gets used occasionally.

The MBP used to be the clear winner for a laptop. Now there is no perfect solution. You aren't wrong that other laptops aren't the old MBP. I don't have the newest one, so I'm not sure if the Surface Book is better or worse, but I'm generally happy in my daily use, but occasionally wish I had a faster and more powerful version of the old Macs.

Maybe we are in the same boat. Or maybe I am just getting old.

Try a Surface? The Surface Book is the best laptop I've ever owned.

Biggest complaint I see, though, is that it doesn't have USB C yet; which I guess you don't care about.

The Surface Book has had an absolute _pile_ of firmware issues. I have had two (obtained from Microsoft as prizes) and both have been buggy messes. One just refused to undock about 50% of the time, necessitating a reboot to restore undock functionality. No firmware updates ever arrived to fix it, and Microsoft support was absolutely useless on the matter.

I sold the other, and the new owner reported that it often woke up for no reason while closed, resulting in massive battery drain and a warm backpack. Also a known issue with no fix, and Microsoft support apparently didn't help either. (They decided to just "wait it out"; I sold it to them without unboxing it so I didn't know it had issues)

Also, touching on the touchscreen while in "laptop" mode was almost as bad as trying to touch the old Surfaces with the touch keyboard - the hinge strength is quite weak and the top is heavy, resulting in a significant amount of wobble. (Cue "it's not supposed to be used like that").

You get good experiences and bad ones, but the Surface Books have been more aggravating than not in my case.

The Surface Book had a ton of issues on launch; but those were worked out within the first six months. I haven't had a docking / undocking issue in ages.

I would expect a Surface Book purchased today to work without all those launch issues.

I had to return two surface books, but the third was pretty good

I'm also a big fan of the Surface (and Windows 10, too!). We went from Mac to Windows and I have no regrets. (It was the desktop / high-end that pushed me over. No good "pro" option on the desktop.)

The 5k iMac isn't a good pro option?

Not with the GPU / CPU offering they have.

Exactly right. We do accurate-color work so I need a wide-gamut monitor I can calibrate. And we need NVidia "Pro" cards (with FP16 full-speed) support. The Mac "faithful" will tell you can can jerry-rig a side-car box and run your GPU cards over USB-C, but that's flakey and slow.

The Surface Book design is just silly to me. By putting the CPU in the display they've limited it's CPU performance a lot. A 13" MBP will outperform it on CPU bound tasks. It has 28W TDP processors instead of 15W like the Surface Book (and the Surface Pro).

If they put the CPU in the keyboard, it wouldn't be able to detach.

Why does it need to detach? The battery life without the keyboard is awful, and the firmware that supports this is pretty buggy.

But then you have to use windows... :< :< :<

no you don't!

https://www.reddit.com/r/SurfaceLinux/

I think I just need to draw everyone's attention to this little parable on why shoehorning Linux into things isn't always a good idea - http://i.imgur.com/znJEV92.png

I use WSL every day for development. It has gotten really solid.

For many of us that is an advantage.

Go with what you know...

To me, I've used Windows for >20 years and it is the devil I know. Windows 10 is fantastic.

My attempt to convert to a Mac / OSX machine was just a confused mess that I abandoned. Like they go out of their way to do things different. [I'm not sure if they 'they' in the last sentence is Apple or Microsoft]. One thing I never got used to was that the mouse scroll wheel detection was reversed between the two OSes. And I had lots more crash problems on the Mac than I ever did on Windows.

I actually enjoy the similarly priced dell laptops with USB-c and the dell dock.

I also do hate the touch bar especially when it crashes.

Agree wholreheartedly. I am still savage that I cannot buy the 15" without paying an extra $300 premium for a touch bar that serves to do nothing but constantly annoy me.

The keyboard annoys me the most.

I'm really happy with the Lenovo X1 Carbon 2017 model. The 2014 (rev 2) was horrible, with the touch bar and smart-ass keyboard layout changes that made touch typing a pain.

I was also tempted by the XPS, but the badly placed camera was a dealbreaker for the number of teleconferences I do.

This thing charges with USB-C, which means I can use the same charger for both my laptop and my Pixel, but it also has two USB-A connectors, so I can still plug my yubikey in for logins, plus HDMI for presentations, a second USB-C for charging my phone or plugging in the VGA adapter, and finally a mini-ethernet (which I have only ever used once to test that it works, I have good wifi everwhere).

It has a 4G modem which works fine with a SIM card. The only thing maybe you could claim is lacking is the screen resolution, but the low resolution saves battery and works more nicely with Linux's awful high resolution support. Silver lining.

Finally this thing has a decent keyboard with good key travel, which is really lacking in a lot of laptops these days. I'm pretty happy.

I'm pretty happy with Thinkpad keyboards :) Some of the more modern ones are thinner, and I haven't tried the ones on the X1 series for instance.

Fellow ThinkPad fan here. I'm using an older ThinkPad (X220t) and would like to upgrade, but I want to try the keyboards before I commit. Has anybody found them anywhere? I called a number of stores in NYC with no luck.

Everything sucks becauase tech is no longer a niche market for nerds. You're no longer in the target audience... I feel your pain.

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