Guide to where your cofounders should live in the SF Bay
maps.google.com
maps.google.com
However -
I'm in a good part of the mission (near dolores) and every other day there is new graffiti on my building, trash everywhere on the streets and broken glass here and there.
related: my moving to SF post http://paulstamatiou.com/atlanta-to-san-francisco-moving-cro...
We'd love people to join us.
Still relatively unknown (Zynga and Digg have figured it out though) more residential and less crime - if you stay on the North side of Potrero Hill (the South side is mostly residential anyway), Dogpatch can be a bit more sketchy. Weather tends to be gorgeous and its actually got fairly easy street parking in most areas.(almost unheard of in SF), and it has a caltrain stop right in the middle of the area.
For those looking for something a little less urban and more affordable then the Mission and SOMA this area is quite a gem.
About
http://www.sfgate.com/neighborhoods/sf/potrerohill/
Map
For me, I'm willing to pay the extra $1k/mo to rent a house in Palo Alto vs. Mountain View or Menlo Park specifically so I can do this. Having fiber directly to your colo, when you're working on big data, moving virtual machines, etc., is amazing. If you live with cofounders and use it as an office, or live with 3-4 other people and split the cost, it really isn't that bad.
Otherwise, I look for Web Pass connected buildings up in SF, or buildings that have IP Networks fiber over PG&E. Those are mainly in SoMA, although some in the east bay around Emeryville/Berkeley/Oakland.
I know 365 Forest (condo building) would have been about $3k to add, since the fiber was in the basement.
There is a utilities guy at city hall who has maps, but I don't have the current ones (I last checked in 2008).
When I move back to SFBA next year, I am either getting a house with fiber in PA, or a condo with IP Networks fiber up in 8th/Folsom area of SoMA. 10GE for the win
It would be an interesting niche to work with landlords to wire up their properties, set up some colo space, and rent out house + cage/racks + fiber on a quarterly basis to startup teams. I'd much prefer a (really nice) house, shared with team, to a bunch of crappy apartments, a daily commute, and an office-building office. Although at that point, fixed wireless becomes an option too..
http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/depts/utl/news/details.asp?New...
however, the palo alto metro fiber map is public. I just don't happen to have a copy on my iPad, sorry.
but thanks, this is useful.
When Garry and I moved to SF to start Posterous, we moved to SOMA since apartments are abundant and it's startup central. But I found little value in being near other companies. What I did find was a lack of food and culture.
Posterous first got offices in North Beach. I really LOVE North Beach. There's amazing food and it's a beautiful part of town. Plus Jam Legend is there.
+1 for the Mission. We love our new offices. Much cheaper than anywhere else in the city, most people can walk to bike to work, tons of great food, near Bart. We couldn't ask for much more.
However, one point of disagreement with Garry's map: you can't simply write off everything north of Market. Sometimes it seems like people south of market (SOMA and Mission) don't cross north as much as they should. There's a lot of city up there!
San Francisco is one of the greatest cities in the world. If you decide to base your company here, don't optimize to be close to Twitter. Optimize to be in a vibrant neighborhood with great food and great culture.
Believe me, even north of market, you will have no problem immersing yourself in startup culture and surrounding yourself with more tech entrepreneurs than you can handle.
It seems to have a rep for being pricey, but there are many areas of North Beach/Russian Hill that are no more expensive than the nicer parts of SOMA.
I also really wouldn't recommend to anyone living around Market St between 10th and 6th. Really not a nice area.
I would never again live in Mountain View because it's too damn boring. Palo Alto might be tolerable.
Having lived in London, I personally find San Francisco to have a lot of the downsides of being a "big city", without actually being a big city and so not having enough of the upsides (just to take one example, MUNI/BART is a joke compared to London's tube system).
I love Palo Alto and Mountain View though, and would live in either town again in a heartbeat.
You can live well here but not deeply.
The number of homeless/crazy people on the streets surprises me when I'm in SF. I know many are probably harmless, but crazy people jumping around, shouting abuse, or acting weird just doesn't make things inviting. Not to mention the beggars at the stop signs.
Is there a system in the US for looking after mentally unstable people? eg would they be put into care if they don't have medical insurance?
http://helpinghomeless.wordpress.com/2009/04/09/mental-illne...
SF, like most large US cities, has lots of unused shelter and facilities. However, they're voluntary and many people won't volunteer.
But then I moved back to NYC from San Francisco and realized that art, music and literature is dying out everywhere in the USA. In New York, there's a lot more stuff like ping-pong clubs and designer boutiques and bike paths... but there certainly aren't as many interesting art, literary or music things happening as there were in the 1990s.
San Francisco was never really an artistic or intellectual center, it's always just been kind of a weird place.
I might be the only person on this forum who moved to SF to go skateboarding, rather than start a tech startup.
If you move to SF hoping it will be a cultural mecca you will be disappointed. But if you go with the flow, you might find something you like.I don't like burning man, either. But there's other stuff to do. I have never been happier than when I was skating or riding my bike around the city, or just goofing off. Why do you think there are so many bums there? Why do you think the beats moved there? It's a great city in which to "bum around." It's kind of bad for almost anything else. I view my time spent there as an extended vacation.
S.F. is a great city to just hang out in. Amazing food, great weather, and a generally laid back attitude make it very pleasant in many ways. I think the .com boom did a lot of damage to the city's culture by driving out everybody that couldn't afford to keep up with the rent increases. I spent a summer here in '92 and it seemed a lot more alive.
Great weather? really? Seems like it's often very windy and cloudy to me. The amount of fog around is just bizarre as well.
It's not exactly San Diego weather here but coming from anywhere that snows it's pretty friendly.
I think one of the problems is that you've forsaken the people who like to "run around naked and high in the desert"; all the creative types I know love Burning Man. Sure, you're not going to find the tea & crumpets type of art scene in SF, but there's definitely plenty of passionately creative people. There's also a tendency amongst tech people to just socialize with tech people, but I don't really get a kick out of it. You should definitely branch out to non-tech social circles and get out of the Rails/Django/Clojure echo chamber.
From your description of the playa it sounds like you've never been out there... you should really try it. No, it's not all "naked and high" people, btw.
I'll take my "high in the desert" people over your "high in Williamsburg, Brooklyn" people any day. I agree that a lot of Burners are deeply annoying, but the core people who actually make it all happen (or the larger installations and camps) are often incredibly interesting, intellectually broad people, doing it all on a shoestring. If you think you're doing a lot with your life being in a startup you're probably not doing half of what they do in an average week.
Compared to that the whole art-car, techno, cyberpunkish thing in S.F. just seems so provincial and quaint. I don't doubt that people put a lot of work into it but it just doesn't compel me at all.
There are a wide variety of other theater venues around the Bay Area. Santa Cruz for small stuff, San Francisco for a huge mix of productions from Broadway shows to weird warehouse stuff, and San Jose, Mountain View, Palo Alto, and Marin all have theater companies.
Not to nitpick, but many of the bands "coming out of Brooklyn right now" are bands that moved there from elsewhere to try to ride the "Brooklyn band = good" wave. It's weird how arbitrary and amorphous these various scenes can be. If you can't find good music coming out of SF, you're probably not looking hard enough.
> Compared to that the whole art-car, techno, cyberpunkish thing in S.F. just seems so provincial and quaint.
It seems odd (and inaccurate) to sum an entire city's culture up with 3 indistinct generalizations.
There are upsides to living in a smaller and less hectic city too, but you can't have it all.
Can anyone name 5 bands from SF? 3? 1?
In contrast, when I grew up in Minneapolis there was a huge local music scene and one of the main things people did was go see local bands. There were dozens of bars with 3+ acts playing all weekend, and often during the week.
There are lots of bars and venues, but I recommend checking out Bottom of the Hill in Potrero -- their shows tend to be cheap and they feature local talent a lot.
I get your point: SF isn't the top dog when it comes to music, but honestly... you can find local music no matter where you are, as long as you look for it. And if you don't look for it, all the local bands you're not going to see are just going to move to Brooklyn (or wherever else is cool that year) along with everyone else.
I don't have enough hours in the day to go to all the film festivals, concerts, author readings, dance performances, gallery openings, and other similar events that are occurring all the time in SF.
If you're looking for people who are interested in things outside of tech, you should start going to some of these events, and meeting people. Join the SF Film Society, for a start! Maybe I'll see you around...
Sorry, maybe I'm taking you too literally here, but I find that hard to believe. You had time to attend every artistic event in SF, and you just weren't satisfied?
I've only visited SF for days, and stayed in a hotel there for a few days, but never really found my feet there. Like you say, it seemed like it has a lot of bad bits without the good bits being obviously there. Maybe they're hidden away :/
I'm much more at home strolling down University Ave or Castro st though. Relaxed, safe atmosphere with plenty to do.
I lived in SF for 3.5 years, and I miss it. A lot more fun in general. There is never a boring moment.
Is that a bad thing, if it has most of what you need?
>> "if you have a family it is a good place. If you are single guy, you'd want to steer clear of them."
Definitely agree. I'm a family guy though. Perhaps I'm just getting old ;)
- Much cheaper rents
- Services: lots of restaurants, especially Asian, many open very late (you have lots of options even from midnight to 3AM), bookstores, bars.
- If you pick your location properly (close to California or Geary, and near certain stops) you can catch express buses to and from downtown at peak hours. 20-25 min to a BART station or SOMA. Off-peak it's more like 30-40 min.
- Unlike SOMA, my cell phone works here ;)
- Downsides: no techie neighbors, except Archive.org who recently took over the old Christian Science building on Park Presidio & Clement.
Just generally, the place feels like a real neighborhood rather than some sort of Potemkin village constructed for yuppies or hipsters. That's important to me, anyway.
Huge downside: very difficult to get south on the freeways. There's no clear path, so you have to fight your way through city traffic. At rush hour, this can easily add 25 aggravating minutes to your commute (and add in an extra 10-15 minutes to find parking in the inner richmond). Really, it's a lot easier to live in the city and work south from the south-central neighborhoods (sunnyside, glen park, mission terrace, bernal).
Ultimately, I'd say that if you work downtown and only need to go to the valley now and then, the inner richmond is a great pick. But if you're in a daily commute type situation going south, I'd avoid it.
You can also run all the way to the Marina/Chrissy fields if you are feeling for a long and hilly run, or just run to Golden Gate Park for a more flat one. The only downside is the weather. Inner richmond gets some good amount of fog/wind (not as bad as outter richmond, or sunset), but still it is significant.
I moved to mountain view now, and I miss it :(
One note: I discourage Millbrae. I grew up there and it was on the boring side of things, while still being a tad pricey. My life is (somewhat) more exciting living in northeastern Sunnyvale (near Hacker Dojo), and rent is dirt cheap (as low as $450/person). Also, for the carless, biking is much better in Sunnyvale/Mountain View than Millbrae.
Also agree about Millbrae being boring. I put it there because its kind of a sweet spot due to multiple transit options (both Caltrain and BART). Most startups will be either heads down coding, or heading to meetings. Mainly good if you don't have a car.
Downtown should be relatively cheap.I personally live in the cherry chase area.
Also, does one need to show some type of credit report or can one just come in with a bunch of cash and wave it around and get a place?
What sort of references did they ask for, and did they verify income in any way?
Are you sure they didn't run a credit report anyway (even if there was no history of borrowing on it)?
In SF, they tend to ask for a copy of your credit report or enough info (social security number) to run one themselves.
And they ask more aggressively when the market is tight -- for example, in 2000, it was wise to bring a printed credit report to the first showing of a vacancy, so your application could be considered in the batch of 10+ people that were applying on the spot. It's not nearly so tight right now.
Sacramento and the East Bay. No rent control. I was only an overseas immigrant without a rental history the first time.
What sort of references did they ask for, and did they verify income in any way?
I think the most recent one did call my boss to verify my income.
Are you sure they didn't run a credit report anyway (even if there was no history of borrowing on it)?
They always run credit reports, even though I tell them "It'll come back blank". The last one did express some surprise that I still had a blank credit report after three years in the US, but nobody ever thought I was a bad risk.
That was in the East Bay, not in the city itself. Still, I have plenty of friends who have got straight off flights from overseas and rented apartments in San Francisco proper with no dramas. As long as you have a steady job and an adequate income I don't think they care about a blank credit report, just as long as you don't have a bad credit report.
http://dougmccune.com/blog/2010/06/05/if-san-francisco-crime...
i lived in the tenderloin for a year and some change and i kind of liked it. there's good night life on polk street and good cheap eats there. i had four indian restaurants within a block of my apartment and could walk to the great american music hall or BART. but it takes a certain kind of person to live amongst that kind of drudgery for so long.
if you want true danger, head down to bayview and hunters point. even the tenderloin has its share of wine bars and quaint coffee shops. the 'view is like another world.
In fact, I once pulled over into a gas station only to have the attendant tell me I needed to get into my car and drive off.
I've never once had an experience like that in SF.
How exactly does this prove it's a decent neighborhood again?
Also, I wouldn't call it a "decent neighborhood," I just don't want to make it seem like you'll get shot for setting foot there, is all. I wouldn't live there.
It's definitely gotten better since the 1990s, but I still would really not want to live there and do a startup.
It's nothing compared to HP, Bayview, EPA, parts of East San Jose, or parts of Oakland, though. When in the area, I often am driving to HP at night (to go to 200 Paul Ave, one of the big datacenters on the West Coast), and I'm always relieved when the gate closes behind my car.
The mission has some bad areas too; unfortunately the area right outside Noisebridge is actually pretty sketchy.
Just throwing out my datapoint...
East Palo Alto is probably more dangerous than the Tenderloin.
The most dangerous parts of SF are Bayview / Hunter's Point and the eastern half of the western addition (near Jefferson Square Park).
Within the last month, for example, there was a stabbing at Laguna and Fell (which is highly unusual) and a shooting around Laguna and Turk (less unusual).
In 2007-2008 I believe the area around Jackson Square Park wad THE most dangerous place in SF.
This is juxtaposed with Hayes Valley immediately to the south, which is filled with lots of 20-something professionals.
Edit: Why am I being down voted? Everything I said was accurate.
>This is juxtaposed with Hayes Valley immediately to the south, which is filled with lots of 20-something professionals.
Accurate? Orly.
Let me tell you, 20-something professionals are a dangerous f'in lot. Stab ya fer yer VC soon as lookit ya.
The tenderloin is the most ghetto in the middle of the city. Personally I feel the danger in this area is overrated but it definitely seems sketchy. The 2nd sketchiest seeming part of the city is 6th and Market. It's like a zombie movie after midnight.
In the city I had more trouble from roving bands of drunks looking for fights in North Beach than I have from either crazy people or muggers.
I have been mugged in both Oakland and Berkeley near the Ashby stop. There are many more spaces where you can be walking around in the dark with nobody around in the East Bay.
You generally need a credit report but the last 2 apartments I rented in SF, the landlord did not ask for one. If it is being rented "by owner" it is up in the air. If it is a management company they will usually want a credit report. If you have no credit report (like, you're from overseas) you can often get by if you pay for a number of months up front.
True. And it also has Tu Lan, Julia Childs' favorite San Francisco restaurant, as an old greasy newspaper clipping in the window used to proudly substantiate.
Either they have an electrical problem or you misused the word "literally".
Foodwise, there are plenty of options though in my estimation there is one great hot pot place "Little Sheep Mongolian Hot Pot", a shabu-shabu place, what seem to be three(?) izakaya places and several ramen shops, too.
I have never been to California, but I want to check it out someday, possibly give a try as a place to live for a while. I quick googled apartments in Palo Alto because it sounded like the ideal location for me. The cheapest one I saw looked exactly like the place I have now but was > $1000 / month (counter tops, layout, size, etc). I'm currently paying $475 for one of the better 1 br here (Oklahoma). The most expensive I have seen is < $900 here for a 1 br in the newest upscale places with every little bill paid included.
So, unless the pay is significantly higher for the same work that I'm making here, I want to know how people deal with the cost of living in the areas provided in this link? Do you live paycheck to paycheck? Do you save much (I'm saving about 2/3 of my paycheck each month)? I wouldn't want to live in a rundown area with holes in the wall (I have lived in such a place) eating only ramen or the cheapest ground beef on discount from the local grocer. Maybe I just should not be looking at Palo Alto.
I will check these areas when I take some time off to travel out there and I will be doing that someday, hopefully not too far in the future.
I'm grateful to the OP for providing this link. Living out here in OK, having never visited CA/SanFran this provides a better overview of the different parts of the area you often read about on here from people.
But the climate is probably also better (warmer in the winter, cooler in the summer), so being cramped is less of an issue.
When I was there, that was the Marina / Cow Hollow. Funny how quickly things change. When I moved down there in 1999, a friend of a friend told me to avoid SOMA if I "didn't like getting stabbed", but I guess that's mostly been gentrified at this point. It was already starting to improve back then.
There are lots of startups around South Park and down into Potrero, even. There are like 10-20 startups working out of Pier 38 alone.
Basically, give the soma a chance: there are quite a few gems and great people who hang out here. The area around folsom and 8th (some people call this folsoma) is starting to get more neightborhoody with the addition of many local restaurants, cafes, and bars.
Also, as the OP mentioned, soma is basically ground zero when it comes to startups and startup activity in SF.
If you don't care about access to public transit then I think its totally reasonable to expand that to places like Nob Hill or North Beach.
It also excludes all of College Terrace in Palo Alto.
Just ignore all the 18 year old fauxbos in upper Haight, theyre harmless.
There is huge variability in the SF housing market and great deals tend to go quick. I'd put my stuff in storage and stay at a long term hotel for a few weeks and be really careful about this, after all you're talking about spending 12-20K a year.
You can get a decent hotel around the airport for like $60 on hotwire, which is really pretty cheap for SF.
http://www.housingmaps.com/ This is useful.
>despite in-depth emails Too long and you'll get no response just like any other CL ad?
One random note : some places require a social security card.
As for the Social Security card, hopefully that's not commonly a dealbreaker…
Thanks for the advice.
One other point: come with your checkbook and be ready to put down a deposit on the spot. Don't rush your decision of course, but places go /fast/ and you'll want to act quickly to ensure the place you're looking for doesn't get taken.
It would be very cool to get a similar map of HN startup locations, IT giants' original garage (YouTube etc), well known web 2.0 startups locations etc....obviously some of these won't be easily available due to founders not willing to divulge their location...would still be cool all the same.
Live with hacker types, and... me. If you're interested, send me an email and tell me about yourself, what you're looking for in a housing situation, etc.
A cool start-up would get office space in the Outer Richmond so you can hike around Land's End every day before you start working, or maybe up in Nob Hill so you're essentially forcing your employees to use public transit some part of the day, giving them that 15 minutes of zen before work.