German Interior Ministry shuts down Linksunten.indymedia.org
dw.com
dw.com
* Leak of AfD (right-wing populist German party) internal chat, which reveals Nazi quotes.
* Article showing collaboration between a neonazi and police in Leipzig.
* Outing right-wing arsonist who was also a police informant.
* Research on the Identitarian Movement, revealing organizational structure.
* Leak of customer data of a Nazi online shop outing parliament member as customer.
No wonder they made some good enemies.
[1] https://twitter.com/Chronik_ge_Re/status/901033270133096452
Outlets like indymedia and the notorious local establishments appear to be more interested in searching in their local neighbourhood politics for justification to riot than in novel kinds of extremist or outright fascist movements developing on a global scale. This makes it a bit difficult to believe their self-proclaimed goals.
Riot-Bundesliga [1]. Who fucks up cities the most? Throw paint at buildings! Set cars on fire! Destroy property of political enemies! And banks! And stores! Beat up (probably) right-wing people! And cops! Go win the crown!
[1] https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:gVWB7G...
The problem is that it's the hot phase right before the election, and Interior Minister de Maiziere, who himself comes from a family with close Nazi ties (https://twitter.com/wasloshamburg/status/901010204598222848) wants to prove, especially after G20, that he is the personification of "law and order".
What I am really afraid of is Joachim Herrmann (CSU, Interior Minister of Bavaria) succeeding that moron after the election. Herrmann recently introduced the possibility of "indefinite jailing" ("Endloshaft") for people that the police deems as "dangerous".
The German Conservatives always have been rightwing-authoritarian, but the pressure from AfD neonazis has shifted their entire politics even more towards right-authoritarian than I would ever have thought possible.
To make matters worse, the SPD has not been able to produce a qualified candidate who actually wants to take back stuff like Hartz IV which the working class really hates, the Green Party got their policies stolen / made irrelevant (environmental protection, exit from nuclear energy), and the Left Party (as well as the non-parliamentary lefties) are rather battling themselves than the Conservatives and the Nazis.
@raverbashing https://youtu.be/vypByg_H_YY?t=51s
The only way to deal with anonymous general threats against authorities is to ignore them. The potential for abuse of such threats as a fabricated pretext is simply too high, as is the number of idiots.
The page in question also introduced a "Randale Bundesliga", a rioting competition in which they crowned the city with the most riots. Anything from throwing paint at buildings to setting cars on fire to beating up people from the opposite political spectrum counts.
I wouldn't be surprised either if it becomes accessible again just after the German federal elections in 4 weeks.
Thing is, the comments on linksunten were uniformly condemning of the letter and the act. Yet still by sympathizers, not outsiders coming to the site. I'd link to the web archive version but the only thing the crawler was able to retrieve was a 'DDOS protection for civil society' banner [2].
"Antifa" is a bogeyman currently, imo.
[1] https://linksunten.indymedia.org/de/node/215853 (offline) [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20170620143720/https://linksunte...
linksunten.indymedia is not actually a club, as which it was forbidden, nor did they publish the contents themselves. As such, they should be subject to the 'Telemediengesetz' just like e.g. Facebook and sued on this basis.
Right wing organizations have been shut down for far less and extremism on both sides should be treated the same way.
Einzelfallmap social media accounts that tracked refugee crimes.
Some of their content was debatable, but they were nowhere near the level of indymedia.
Then they put the identitarian movement on a watch list, who have done very little so far in terms of actual crime.
... which regularly posted conspiracy theories, fake news and distributed hate speech against migrants.
> Einzelfallmap social media accounts that tracked refugee crimes.
...ONLY "refugee" crimes, without a comparison to German crimes this is nothing more than inciting hate.
> Some of their content was debatable, but they were nowhere near the level of indymedia.
It was Twitter and Facebook that shot them down. Private entities, not the government - that's a difference.
> Then they put the identitarian movement on a watch list, who have done very little so far in terms of actual crime.
One IB guy in Berlin nearly ran over a cop with a car. The IB tried obstructing of SAR NGOs, and they were filmed while trying to pirate a speedboat of Open Arms NGO boat. IB activists have committed many crimes, ranging from simple vandalism over shooting with (fake) guns (Martin Sellner in Austria) to attempted murder (the guy with the truck and the police officer).
Also, there's the continuous effort to ban the right-wing party (NPD).
"Normal" right-wing as in conservative would be CDU and CSU. To quote the Federal Constitutional Court (Bundesverfassungsgericht) [0]
>Die Nationaldemokratische Partei Deutschlands (NPD) vertritt ein auf die Beseitigung der bestehenden freiheitlichen demokratischen Grundordnung gerichtetes politisches Konzept.
The Nationaldemocratic Party Germany (NPD) stands for a political concept aimed at abolishing the free democratic constitutional structure.
[0] https://www.bundesverfassungsgericht.de/SharedDocs/Pressemit...
edit: fix'd formatting
Horrible.
Also, banning a political party is quite a big hammer, regardless of how important the party itself is.
What I'm having trouble following is the logic of "the violent extremism on the other side is less bad, because it hasn't led to similarly horrible effects yet".
Breaking the law is breaking the law.
Literally illegal to call for less immigration.
Not at all.
In that specific hate-inciting speech Geert Wilders was calling for fewer Moroccans. And this is primarily directed towards Dutch people with a Moroccan background who've already live in the Netherlands for decades or are second-generation immigrants. There is virtually no immigration from Morocco, in 2015 approximately 1% of the immigrants arriving in The Netherlands was Moroccan [1].
[1] https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/publicatie/2016/47/jaarrapport-inte...
Most political parties in The Netherlands have talked about the problems of immigration and integration in The Netherlands at least since Pim Fortuyn 15 years ago. Some parties longer (e.g. Frits Bolkenstein of the VVD, who Geert Wilders worked for). So, it is by no means illegal to talk about current or past immigration policies.
This is really scary how laissez faire they were before. Bored bands of anarchists destroying public and private property (e.g. burning down cars) on daily basis accompanied by cheers of "useful idiots".
I really hope this is a first step in direction of solving this dangerous precedent.
The world's smallest violin is weeping. I guess "big government" isn't such a good thing now, is it?
(Explaining: Your post only exposes the size of your ignorance)
Which I find pretty concerning. "Don't say anything nasty about the state or the police, or we will shut you down" Isn't a message I was expecting to hear from a European Government.
I'm not saying I disagree with your argument, but "don't say anything nasty" doesn't represent the facts accurately.
They weren't raided for making true threats, but for letting the site become a "lawless realm" and/or for "sowing hate against different opinions and representatives of the country", charges so vague they could apply to almost any online forum or uppity news site.
"Hate speech" is a real thing there that will land you in jail.
This is wildly inaccurate. In Germany there are mainly three kinds of speech punishable by law:
(1) Defamation
(2) Volksverhetzung ("all jews must die")
(3) Incitement (there are two different kinds of this, one where a specific person is incited to do something criminal, and the other where you publicly instigate a group to do something criminal)
It is quite clear that these don't nearly cover everything that may be commonly considered "hate speech".
If you look at the legal basis they used, you will find that the organization was actually banned as (inter alia) being a criminal conspiracy with the goal of facilitating the commission of criminal offenses (and in particular, violent crimes). Searches found knives, truncheons, and other weapons [1].
[1] http://www.n-tv.de/politik/De-Maiziere-verbietet-linksunten-... (in German).
Associations whose aims or activities contravene the criminal laws, or that are directed against the constitutional order or the concept of international understanding, shall be prohibited. [1]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registered_association_(German...
[1] https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/englisch_gg/englisch_gg.h...
(1) A Verein is regardless of the legal form any association formed voluntarily by a multitude of natural or legal persons over a longer timespan for a common purpose, subject to organized decision-making.
(2) Vereine are not
1. political parties as defined by article 21 of the Grundgesetz [essentially the constitution]
2. parliamentary groups of the Bundestag and and the parliaments of federated states
EDIT: banning a Verein is regulated by http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/vereinsg/__3.html
(1) A Verein may only be treated as banned (article 9 par. 2 of the Grundgesetz), if the banning agency determines that its purpose or its actions run counter to the criminal law or that it is directed against the constitutional order or the ideal of peaceful exchange between the peoples [Gedanke der Völkerverständigung; let me know if you have a better translation] ; the declaration is to order the dissolution of the Verein (ban). The ban is usually to involve the seizure of [a bunch of stuff I'm too lazy to translate]
(for reference, original title was "Germain Interior Ministry shuts down, and raids Linksunten.indymedia.org")
Also, it seems the person who posted this modified the title for some reason. The actual article title is "German Interior Ministry shuts down, raids left-wing German Indymedia site". We can probably agree that this title isn't great either, but it's far better than the hatchet job the poster did.
If you extend the list to three items, an oxford comma actually helps with understanding the sentence: "German Interior Ministry shuts down, brings charges against and raids Linksunten.indymedia.org" vs "German Interior Ministry shuts down, brings charges against, and raids Linksunten.indymedia.org". But in general it's just a really bad sentence no matter how many commas there are.
Also, the wording is still ambiguous. How about this:
"German Interior Ministry raids Indymedia and shuts it down"
I am shocked - shocked - that anti-hate animus would be used this way!
I told people it's going to be used against them one day. Shortsighted idiots.
They are, and have historically been, the policy for the vast majority of countries, and are advantageous positions for a population to have - is that all it takes to be far right?
Immigrants help Countries they move to, they build the economy and workforce, and are the only reason why the US does not have an aging population as bad as Canada, Japan, and many other nations. Opposition to immigration is xenophobia.
Historically, many things have been bad, and/or wrong. Mental Health treatment, treatment of the aboriginal people, food safety, environmental policy and protection. How is history any sort of an argument?
> we live in a global market,
Treating local businesses preferentially does not mean abolishing international trade. Just look at China, or US agricultural subsidies, or tariffs, or countless other examples.
> Immigrants help Countries they move to
Countries, perhaps, but what about the local people? Don't they compete for the same jobs, driving down wages? Vote and take advantage of common resources (drinking water, arable land, existing infrastructure, etc.), reducing the political and economic capital of the locals? Encourage policies for more immigration, instead of policies that would encourage parenthood? Won't immigrants look out for their own interests more than for those of the local population?
Let me rephrase that last question - is racism real?
> Immigrants [...] are the only reason why the US does not have an aging population
It's a sick society indeed that can't even sustain its own population. And instead of improving itself, it makes up the shortfall with immigration. Do you really believe immigration is the only way to sustain population levels? Why can other countries manage without?
> Treating local businesses preferentially does not mean abolishing international trade. Just look at China, or US agricultural subsidies, or tariffs, or countless other examples.
Yes, this is true, they can both exist together.
> Don't they compete for the same jobs, driving down wages? Vote and take advantage of common resources (drinking water, arable land, existing infrastructure, etc.), reducing the political and economic capital of the locals? Encourage policies for more immigration, instead of policies that would encourage parenthood? Won't immigrants look out for their own interests more than for those of the local population?
Why are you making this about us vs them? What is your purpose? Once they immigrate, they are the local population. Everyone takes advantage of those resources, tough. Parenthood doesn't need to be encouraged through policies.
> is racism real?
Yes, it's absolutely insane to me that you are even asking that. You must have lived a sheltered life to think it doesn't exist.
> And instead of improving itself, it makes up the shortfall with immigration
It won't sustain it's own population, this is on us, as a society, and due to changes in the job and technology markets, populations are shrinking dramatically. We aren't and can't force people to have 10 children anymore, that just won't happen.
Other countries don't manage without, what are you saying? They allow immigration, and the population is still shrinking.
What do you have against immigrants, against immigration?