Dangers of Sitting | Hacker News Reader

Dangers of Sitting

bloomberg.com

184 pointspetethomas158 comments

So sitting is bad.

Last week it was standing : https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15050248

It's starting to be difficult to know how to work !

(And yes, I know it's a matter of the duration you stay in the same position, but I found it funny that both topics pop out in the same week)

Article agrees with risks of standing and clearly says there is no winner here. Suggestion:

The best way for desk jockeys to avoid the sitting trap, research shows, is to not just stand but walk around — for a couple of minutes once an hour, or for five or 10 minutes a few times a day.

I have a standing desk, and I try to switch between sitting and standing. But I also have a Fitbit Charge 2 that has (as the default setting) a reminder to walk at least 250 steps every hour. If I am below that at 10 minutes to the hour, there is a little buzz, and often I try to take a quick break then and walk around the office.

Maybe that is why coffee drinkers are healthier. Up for more coffee and/or bathroom every hour or so.

I think I heard Kent Beck refer to this as the 'pee-modoro' technique

I alternate between standing and sitting. It seems only natural to me that the body needs variation. Stand, sit and (if possible) take a brief walk. Also, there's only one way to stand (correct me if I'm wrong), but there's a whole bunch of ways to sit. http://www.anvention.com/images/zazen_postures.jpg

You can still stand with bad posture which doesn't do your lower back any good. [0] Some people call it sway back, others call it Anterior Pelvic Tilt (APT).

[0] http://posturedirect.com/how-to-fix-sway-back-posture/

Can't edit, but I now see what you meant for sitting in different positions. Still, people should be standing and thinking about how they stand in order to get better posture and not have back problems in the future.

Oh my god! What a coincidence this is. Yesterday at around 3am I woke up in the middle if the night and I had the worst pain in my lower back.

I have never had any problems with my back in my entire life so this came as a shocker. My job is as a web developer so I spend 90% of my time awake seated and working.

Here's what happened:

Once I woke up, I tried standing up and I could barely walk because of the pain. Talk about being god damn mortified. I immediately called my girlfriend to let her know she should probably check on me in the morning.

In a state of panic, I also called a doctor friend of mine at around 4:30am. I explained my situation to him and he told me to conduct a simple test and answer some questions so he could assess what it could be: he asked me to put my chin on my chest which I could and that was good. He also asked whether there was numbness or tingliness which I didn't have so he was more at ease. However, because he couldn't explain what it was he suggested I should go to the hospital. It wasn't safe to get out at that time so I decided to take some ibuprofen which luckily I had, and wait it out till the sun was up. I managed to get some sleep by 5:50am and by the time I woke up at 9am. The pain had somehow reduced and I could walk again.

My friend later on prescribed some myospaz and suggested it might have been a muscular issue. I'm feeling much better now. I still can't bend or lift heavy things but I can at least I can do some basic stuff like go to the bathroom without feeling excruciating pain when I change body posture e.g. moving from standing to sitting position and vice-versa.

I'm working from home now. Seated on my couch in the living room because, you know, code must be shipped and I absolutely love what I do. My back is rested on the couch so I'm pretty comfortable and the pain has been gradually decreasing.

LESSONS LEARNED

1. What didn't help:

Reading about back pains on the internet. If you want to absolutely heighten your anxiety when panicking about your health, read about it on the internet. I had begun to imagine the worst.

2. My girlfriend has been so great helping me out with cooking and cleaning since I've been pretty much useless at any laborious tasks. I should probably marry her NOW. She's been amazing.

3. Ergonomics

I've been trying to figure out what I might have done to trigger this and the only thing that comes to mind is that lately I had been changing my posture to a more upright position i.e. straight back instead of leaning back on the chair and letting my back ease up by resting it on the back of the chair. I'm insatiably trying to learn all I can about this topic. (any resources are welcome)

Everything is bad for you if you do it long enough, this has been known just about for ever. Sit, stand, take walks, run up and down the stairs, take a cup of coffee and chat with your coworkers/neighbours. Just make sure to not eat too much sugar and so on :-)

Suggestion: try a threadmill desk, [1].

[1] https://notsitting.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/LifeSpan-T...

I usually work following a 25 minutes of work followed by a short 3-5 minute break schedule, which usually consists in going up a floor, get some water, and back to the office (that's the closest water source we have). I cannot speak for any health benefits of my "technique", but I find it very refreshing.

Too much of any particular position will be bad. Sit on different chairs, move around regularly. Don't sit on the same chair in the same position all day for 40 years.

you have to work from bed, as I'm doing now :)

Sit on the floor in cross legged posture and work

I sit on my chair cross legged. Sometimes in the floor or on my desk, depending on what I'm up to. I doubt it has any health benefits over "regular" sitting.

I've tried sitting cross legged on the chair. It still feels uncomfortable with a little balance issue. I was spending more time in correcting my posture than sitting in a relaxed manner.

It definitely has health benefits, by restricting blood flow to the lower part of the body. It is highly advisable to eat while sitting on the floor to aid digestion

Source forum those purported health benefits?

Maybe we'll need to mount a desk and computer to something like this: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Professional-eco-frie...

Treadmill desk until you can afford to be idle rich and not strapped into a SlaveStation 40-80hrs a week.

Honestly, as a person who worked for years on standing jobs, fuck that. It wrecked my back and knees and I worked extremely hard to move to an office job. Now, decades later, my knees still creak and pop when I move, but I see people moving their desks to standing desks.

People, just go to a gym regularly and work out. There's no easy fix.

When I was a student I worked for 6 month as security guard on events.

Mostly the job was being standing at an entrance for 12 hours in a row (with a 20 Minutes break to eat), waiting for the 12 hours to be over (it was not the entrance for public so basically there were people crossing in the early morning and at the end of the day)

So I partially understand what you've been through. I'm lucky it was just a student job for me, but 25 years later it's still a bad memory.

In India, we believe sitting with your leg hanging is not healthy. We usually sit on the floor which will restrict blood flow to the lower part of the body, resulting in more blood to the upper body where most of the vital organs are.

Yogis/Rishis sit for months in that cross legged posture without any issues.

Standing/Jogging/Walking is not the opposite of sitting. We need to learn how to sit properly

Are you referring to the Yogis who maintain specific positions for years, deforming their bodies into gnarled, unusable limbs? I wouldn't consider that healthy at all. I would consider them mentally ill.

Ah, yes: yogis with gnarled, unusable limbs. Here's a clip of of Iyengar in 1977, at age 59: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pIgs03TYo4

:) I'm saying sitting comfortably on the floor with cross legged.

Sample : https://a248.e.akamai.net/secure.meetupstatic.com/photos/eve...

http://s.isha.ws/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/20121119_CH...

I once joked that ever since I've heard about how bad it is to sit down during hours, I've decided to lay down instead.

But is that really so silly? I used to work in front of a computer. I was sited all day and I can tell it got very uncomfortable. I had back pain and stuff. Now I spend most of my time on the bed, and my back is absolutely fine. The main drawback is my neck, but it's not nearly as inconvenient.

What I mean is : isn't the posture what is wrong with sitting instead of just inactivity? If so, does that mean we need something like the Altwork Station[1]?

1. http://altwork.com/

Serious question: do you have separate beds for sleeping/working? I've worked in bed during long periods of recovering from injury but I found it was very difficult to fall asleep at the end of the day because my body thought it was still 'in the office'. Now I work at a regular desk, and fall asleep within a couple of minutes of lying down at the end of the day.

Nope, I use the same bed. I do have difficulty to fall asleep though.

I spend most of my workday in a zero-gravity chair - I got a leather one off craigslist, but the cheap patio versions are just as comfortable (you can find a bunch on amazon). I have a monitor mounted above me and a keyboard in my lap, and it's never uncomfortable. I think for programming, being uncomfortable can definitely kill some productivity - at a normal desk, I'm intermittently thinking about and correcting my posture, or trying to shift myself to find a new comfortable position, and it interrupts my train of thought. And to feel like I'm not relaxing my ass into an early death, I'll get up and do a quick workout once every hour or two.

What do you use to mount the monitor?

A basic monitor arm attached to the front of the desk, and a 40" monitor mounted to it. (this one: https://www.amazon.com/AmazonBasics-Single-Monitor-Display-M...)

The downside is you can't really use the desk as a normal desk anymore, but if I need to write stuff or do non-computer work, I just do it elsewhere.

Of course there is The Onion's report: More Office Workers Switching to Fetal Position Desks

As they report "Fetal position desks help releive tension from unending horror of workday" :-)

http://www.theonion.com/video/more-office-workers-switching-...

Perhaps. But it sounds like a recipe for atrophy. Make sure you still exercise.

Me too, I work mostly from the bed. I rarely sit more than 3-4 hours a day and it hurts. It started about 20 years ago and never went better. Besides that, I'm very active doing all type of sports without much issues, but sitting is painful.

I'm lucky that I can work from home most of the time, I don't know how I would do if I couldn't.

I remember a study from a few years ago, but I sadly can't find an authorative link. The result was basically that for your circulation, it doesn't matter if you sit or lay down (both are equally bad), but laying down is much better for your back and joints.

This is why I like working at home. Throughout my workday I go from standing, to sitting, to laying on the couch. Even when sitting I'll move from my office desk to the kitchen table just to mix things up.

Is my posture perfect in any of these positions? Probably not, but I never stay in one position long enough to notice.

Another thing that I didn't really think about when I bought my Apple Watch, were the reminders to walk around every hour or so. It sounds simple, but without the reminders I would rarely get up on days when I go in the office.

An even better reminder IMHO is to just drink plenty of water, then your body tells you when it's time to get up and empty your bladder (and refill the glass). I've been using this method for ~25 years without the need for digital reminders. My glass holds 0,5 Liters of water and that's usually the limit for my bladder.

Be careful, the neck position may catch up to you eventually! I spent about 75% of the workday in bed with my laptop over the past 5 years. Earlier this year, I experienced my first pinched nerve - chronic pain is horrible; the doctor, medication, and especially the physical therapy are no fun :)

I recently started using a lap desk laptop stand with multiple adjustable angles and comfortable bolster cushion (in case you're curious, the brand I purchased is Halter - $19.99). I now sit on my couch with the laptop screen directly in line with my eyes, to prevent the typical downward neck tilt common with desk use.

Ironically, when I worked at Bloomberg, I failed to get a stand up desk for myself. HR made people jump through so many hoops. A note from this doctor and an approval from that specialist, on and on. I tried for months. Then I brought in a swiss ball to sit on and it got taken away. And all of that was in 2014, not that long ago.

> Then I brought in a swiss ball to sit on and it got taken away.

Huh? Why?

Anecdotes like this make me hope I never have to work in a large company again.

You bought in a Swiss ball and it got taken away? Can you expand upon this, I've been looking at positions there any input on this would be great.

I have an adjustable desk. It's really nice to be able to move around throughout the day, but for any thoughtful task that requires some amount focus, I have to sit. I'd like to read further collectively inconclusive research about that.

I have the exact same issue. I recently moved to an adjustable desk, and writing emails is fine standing up. It's when I need to have a 2-3 hour coding session that I must sit down or I can't focus. I am wondering if this is learned behavior or if sitting down fosters creativity in some way. I'd love to see some science on it too.

It took me 6 months to make the switch. My standing desk has two computers, 2 keyboards, and 3 screens, soon to be more. I have both systems set up for working on different parts of the same project. I work for an hour on one, walk to the other, do some different work.

Switching to this kind of setup was both physical and mental. It was taxing assuming the right posture after years of sitting. My back isn't quite right, but it's a lot better now. Mentally speaking, sometimes I need to sit - I just can't do a certain thing standing up or I'm mentally exhausted and it starts manifesting physically. I actually sit on the floor now, it's uncomfortable and encourages me to stand after a while.

So, the net result is, I've incorporated both mental and physical movement into my work and life.

Adjustable desk owner here as well - while it's great and I wouldn't want to miss it [1], I also have a bar stool with a backrest, so I can easily transition between standing and sitting in a second. I also often find sitting conducive to thinking, but then again sometimes I feel most focused when walking around the room.

It's hard to put my finger on what it depends on exactly, but it seems to me that often when I have no idea how to approach a problem, I like to sit or lie down, roll it around in my mind, maybe look at the code/the application and let possible solutions come to me. When I already have a basic idea of what direction to go in, I like to walk around in front of my desk while I work out the details (= talk them over with myself) and then type/write standing.

It almost seems as if the natural action for a physical destination (not standing around like an idiot until I know where I want to go, then starting to walk and finding my way there as soon as I do) helps with the corresponding thought processes involved in reaching a purely mental destination.

Regarding the physical aspect - over the last years of transitioning to and experimenting with a standing a desk I have had phases where I spent hours standing, phases where I went back to sitting most of the time and phases where I had a balance between the two. My personal experience seems to match the anecdotal evidence I've encountered as well as what seems to be the scientific consensus (oiling of joints and lymphatic circulation both rely on movement, among other things), which is that the human body simply isn't designed for spending long periods of time in a single static position.

Spending hours standing tends to hurt my feet and knees, spending hours sitting makes my back unhappy. Constantly switching between the two and walking around the room in between makes long sessions of working on a computer much less taxing on the body by far and it makes perfect sense to me that the accumulative effect of this over the course of years and decades will make a difference to my quality of life down the line (in addition to the immediate effects I'm experiencing often after only a single day of doing one or the other).

Another thing I've noticed - giving myself the option to easily switch positions, forcing myself to do it for a while with a timer and paying attention to how it feels, lead to me being aware of becoming restless in a single position after a while and noticing the beginning discomfort in parts of the body, which I only used to notice when they were already hurting after hours standing or sitting.

I don't use a timer anymore, by now I just listen to my body telling me when it's time to move my arse and it all syncs up nicely with the different mental states I move between during work.

On a side note/quick rant - how stuck are we in our heads and screens, how detached are we from our bodies and how ignorant of the fact that in evolutionary terms we were moving around all the time until like a second ago, that we need a study to figure out that hey, maybe sitting on our collective arses 90% of the time might not be great for us and are we really sure that's a problem, maybe we need more studies. End of rant.

TL;DR - get an adjustable desk and a comfortable bar stool, don't stand still, pay attention to how you're feeling - both your body and your mind will thank you.

[1] IKEA has this cheap manually adjustable option if one doesn't want to spend the money on an electrical desk, plus only having mechanical parts means it's less likely to break/easier to fix if it does: http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S29084966/

P.S. The rant wasn't directed at you/delias_, I was just randomly shouting into the ether. Kind of like an old crazy man in the subway.

P.P.S. General note on working standing - occasionally, that is every few minutes or whenever I feel like it, I will move around from leg to leg, get up on my toes, move my knees around, etc. That feels much better than planting my heels on the floor and not moving for an hour.

Jog people. Seriously jog. To work, to the store... Smoothly, avoiding heel stomping (youll have calves in 3 days), to avoid joint pressure, especially at first. (my knees are still fucked up, but even then, I barely feel pain after 4 miles jog when I amort the landing properly).

2 miles per day will change your life. I now miss when I can't, I sleep better, I wake up better. It's a huge stress reliever, resets your mind, burns fat, opens your lungs, makes you hungry for healthier food (less pastry, more veggies and meat). bonus point: you get a tan

I couldn't "move" for three years and I notice the difference now that I can.

See you in 2 miles.

Why not cycling instead? Seems easier on the joints and muscles

I do indoor biking, for this exact reason. But, it has a much lower impact on my health. Maybe it's because indoor bike don't move, thus not involving as many muscle groups as real bike.

The efforts are not distributed the same way. Obviously biking will exercise your thighs but not much else. While running uses abs, all your legs muscles groups. I also believe that we're wired to be efficient at running and thus running tickles your body in better ways. Also there's a nice feeling when your center of gravity lifts up.

Even if I can go fast on a bike for 1 min, I can barely sprint that long and surely slowly and I end up exhausted differently. In the end I prefered what running brought me. It may be very subjective though, even if I enjoy all sports, I always had a thing for running.

This is all crude opinion, I'd love if anyone with bio/biomech knowledge could shed light on the subject.

Good point for the muscle groups involved. Maybe you could bike for cardiovascular health, and for muscle training add some squats (a simple complete workout would be push ups, pull ups and squats, pull ups require a bar though but it's a very useful investment for your back in the long term)

Cardio is the sole reason I do indoor biking. I was very sick and couldn't do much, so I tried having mild biking effort as a way to rehabilitate my heart.

I used to do exactly what you suggest: bike + full workout. I liked it a lot, but it's not integrated as in a sport. It was odd for instance, I had much more "power" than ever, so much that I couldn't run anymore because my thighs were too strong and I had to relearn how to land my foot otherwise I'd miss the ground.

Cycling is more fun than running for me but exactly because of all the reasons you mentioned I prefer running over cycling. What I also realized is that nothing works as good as running (at least for me) for weight loss if you also change your eating habits (you need to have a calorie deficit in order to lose fat).

For around 9 weeks I managed to go running for 10km every second day and then my two weeks vacation happened. I'm trying to get back in again because I'm extremely frustrated on days I don't go running. I cannot emphasize enough on the stress relieving part. For me it's around 50 minutes of complete peace of mind where the only things I focus are breathing and moving my body.

One thing I recommend is to track your runs because it's fun and interesting to see your improvement over time. Bonus points if you track your heart rate as well. :)

I use some android app (fitness run or something like this) to have logs. Google fit is nice even though it's not precise GPS wise (relies on Google Maps trip logs).

A smartphone is a bit annoying to carry and use, I might invest in a gps wrist so I can pause / resume with a button.

Right now I'm at 2x2.5km jogging + 5km of walk. And even though I don't have a calorie deficit, I already lost significant amount of fat and got back muscle mass (the bliss of sore muscles right? ;) I'm sure even with a normal diet it's a lot better to have a more active metabolysm as it is now.

This is a persistent misconception about running. You absolutely must invest the time to learn proper form (or more accurately, unlearn negative habits, because children naturally know how to run), but as an activity it is not inherently dangerous for your joints or knees.

I invite you to read literature on the subject:

1. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2556152/?tool=p...

2. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2743580/

3. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/16932832/

Note: I am not a doctor, and the literature becomes mixed as you study runners with higher and higher mileage per week. The point is that someone with a healthy weight should not be damaging their joints merely by repeatedly running - proper running involves allowing your feet to fall below you, not ahead of you, where the calves and quads can properly absorb the impact and use the "bounce" from the ground impact to propel forward efficiently. Doing something other than this, like landing on your heel in front of your body, forces your knees to absorb the impact.

If you're running 60, 70 or 80 miles per week there may be degenerative effects on joint health, but if we're speaking realistically that is unlikely to happen for someone just looking to get into shape unless they're a few years in and training for something. I run 30 miles per week and have no plans to significantly increase my mileage - my health and fitness goals are rather more "intense" than most people I know and it takes up a lot of my time (looking at about an hour of running workout per day).

If someone wanted to gain the benefits from jogging, jogging to the store or even commuting by running five days a week would be far, far lower than what appears to be the lower bound on introducing joint degeneration.

I'm going to echo the grandparent comment: if you're not already moving and have a favorite exercise (cycling, swimming), I urge you to consider running. Running every day quite literally changed my life. Dieting is a close second. My mood significantly improved, my sleep improved, every physical activity felt better, etc. After a month of consistent running you even miss it when you don't do it.

First, thanks for the links.

Maybe I exagerated, I just know how easy it is to use your muscle and limb chains badly and then stop because it hurts somewhere.

My advice was to start very slow, and avoiding heel is a trigger to think of landing as absorbing, using your calves at first.

Thanks for sharing, I second this! I've seen a few people mention alternating from free running/jogging to lower impact activities in between running days. This is how I built up to daily running without off days (about 3-4 miles), but after about 6 months of consistency the soreness or discomfort has entirely subsided.

Haven't seen anyone mention it, but a more recent, low impact excersize I've picked up recently is golf (walking, no cart, no caddy). I'm currently working of a project that's going on a year behind schedule, and Monday was the third week in a row of a meeting posponed last minute due to collegues having scheduling conflicts that were existing, but not disclosed until late enough to waste an hour of everyones time. Instead of maintaining a few more hours of poor posture at my sitting desk for a noon reschedule, I took off a half day and golfed 18 holes while enjoying the eclipse. My advise: make sure you jog a few miles in the morning, then do your best to tolerate the dangerous sitting posture of your 5 hour work day. OK, now that you've had just about enough sitting for one day, how about a nice afternoon of golf to strech out that lower back?

Or a brisk walk to and from the office.

How do you dress, and how do you carry things? (Laptop/documents to work, groceries from the store...)

Backpack. Obviously you don't get family scale groceries, But I can carry back fruits + ham + pack of small bottle home regularly.

BTW, heel striking is okay. Running form develops naturally. You folks taking this advice seriously want to focus on cadence and getting it to around 180 spm. Cadence has been shown to decrease injury risk. Altering your running form has lots of adherents due to anecdotes but no evidence supporting it.

I think this needs to be clarified: heel striking is not okay if your feet are landing in front of your body instead of underneath it. The reason cadence is a good indication of form is because it implies to what extent your feet are falling where they should be.

If you're already doing something that works for you and doesn't cause you pain or injury, don't change your form. But for most people who are just starting out, they are almost definitely going to need to change their form to avoid injury.

That is my point, keep it simple at first. Cadence is a much better heuristic than "heel strike". Also, it is understood you will run differently without shoes.

Jack Daniel's, (the famous running coach and physiologist) gave a good summary of it: There are two types of runners over time, those that adopt a higher cadence rate and those that get injured. Lore of Running (Noakes) and Daniels are both at complete odds about doing any significant adjustments to your running form other than monitoring cadence. At 180spm for most people that equates to a much lighter step that reduces the GRF (Ground Forces) per strike, which seems more important than other aspects of form.

Try heel striking without 10mm of padding under your foot. When people run barefoot, they naturally fore/mid strike.

I suspect you need an "eventually" before "naturally" there. You can't instantly transition from heel strike to fore/mid strike without causing a whole mess of problems.

Altra (who are merely zero-drop shoes, not barefoot) recommend a gradual transitioning over at least 6 months.

You mean shifting injuries from knees to heel tendons ?

One thing barefoot runners showed me is the static bounce starting point. Your gesture should be similar to that of landing from small repeated vertical jumps. When you find a balance in how the weight is distributed, you start to go forward.

No, take off your shoes, and run around the yard right now. Tell me how you strike your feet.

Obviously if you've heel striked your entire life while running, you'll have to ease yourself into it. That's also not what I was responding to. Saying heel striking is OK, it is not. It's a bad habit formed by over padding sneakers.

https://www.runresearchjunkie.com/barefootminimalism-running... suggests it's not necessarily that simple.

Since competition as a kid, decades ago I stopped using my heels. I just remember how cross country running shoes help you running properly...

it's true that absorbing soles are probably a bad solution to a non problem.

It depends very specifically on what sort of problems you develop. It is theorized that when you do suffer a lower limb injury using orthotics changes your muscle activation pattern (moreso than changing your form), which helps alleviate the issue. The rate of orthotics fixing problems after a specific injury is pretty high so it is more than just mumbo jumbo.

"70% of runners with lower limb injuries improve when they use orthotic devices (James et al. 1978; Bates et al. 1979, McKenzie et al. 1985; Gross et al. 1991)..." Noakes, lore of running. So clearly orthotics and what you put under your feet can have an impact and make things better (or worse, but probably better if someone knowledgeable about biomechanics can see your pronation and gait).

Ironically I used some orthotics as a teen. My feet are half flat, some "podologist" gave me curved soles. Didn't work on me. I don't refute the idea; I probably just needed a more comprehensive solution for a prolongated time to make a difference.

This is blatantly unsupported by any evidence. If you want to run in most places people can easily run you have to wear shoes. There is no conclusive or even decent evidence that heel striking or non heel striking causes injuries. Barefoot running causes very different muscle activation patterns. It is much less efficient (biomechanically) requiring you to compensate very differently.

There is one study barefoot purists like to trot out that they think means barefoot/forefoot striking decreases injuries: https://runblogger.com/2012/02/vivobarefoots-barefoot-is-bes... -- the study was also sub-elite or elite collegiate athletes.

Other studies that I think are more relevant to a typical runner show very different results and the study is more credible: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26126256

Find evidence that isn't anecdotes and is widely accepted and I will gladly change my mind. It is still an ongoing debate and the evidence in either direction is only moderate (in the direction of heel striking being fine, especially for folks running recreationally with a rather low load). Given the general lack of evidence it comes down to anecdotes and you can find those everywhere, people are crazy.

You're assuming a heel striker automatically has knee problems. This isn't a given. Many of them have no problems at all.

Agreed.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26126256

http://www.kinetic-revolution.com/dont-believe-the-heel-stri...

Also: Changing gait is very hard: https://runblogger.com/2011/11/just-quick-post-to-announce-t... -- people revert when they get tired unless it is very deeply ingrained as a change.

edit: My conclusion, ignore any running form purists or blow hards. Throw some shoes on. Go run. Conservatively and following the laws of training. If you get hurt you can fix it and it usually doesn't suck (stretching, less running for a while, strength training). If you don't get hurt, you were better off not overthinking it :)

I do. It's fine. I have run 40 miles per week for months at a time training for ultra marathons. Anecdotes and all. If you want to prevent injuries, lift some heavy things to make your joints and ensure you don't have any weakness in your legs or posterior chain. Run with a high cadence.

The truth is this, why runners get injured is varied and running form naturally improves if someone runs a lot and practices running drills that encourage new muscle activation patterns. Running a lot with no strength training can mean weaker muscles, so strength training is almost always prescribed as a preventative and as a fix to encourage better muscle activation patterns.

Each persons biomechanical form is different and unique to them. Tinkering with what is natural to them seems ill advised at best given what we do know about injury rates.

Running barefoot is less efficient and probably reduces injuries due to different muscle activation patterns (the leading theory about why some shoes can cause problems and others can fix them). It is thought that pronation isn't really significantly altered by shoes.

In Noakes and Daniels, my favorite two authorities on running, you will find very little focus on running form as a key aspect of being a life long runner because it is something that developers naturally. Only when specific problems occur should you really diagnose and try to fix things. Most people can run a healthy amount without changing anything and wearing any old running shoes. When specific things occur specific fixes must be deployed and "fix all" advise (even like mine, run 180spm, or, don't heel strike) is just not helpful unless it actually addresses the specific cause of the problem. More often than not someone can keep their existing running form and something else is advised (stretching, strength conditioning, running speed drills to improve foot turnover and alter muscle activation, orthotics to activate muscles differently, etc. etc.).

Absolutely! Exercise in general will do wonders for you. Right now I play bball 2-3x/week, and on off days I power lift. Some days ball is at 6:45am and others it's at 7pm. It's funny because the morning bball wakes me up and evening bball helps me sleep at night.

Yeah physical activity is just part of our bodies.

I used to do taichi/noob-wushu in college. It's a funny "sport" because it's oh so smooth and slow but it makes use of so many forgotten muscles that I left my first session drained. I never got high on weed, but that afternoon I was high as fuck.

Some schools experimented doing some taichi first in the morning. Lots of kids said they felt better, calmer and more focused mentally.

Who makes money by us being afraid to sit down? Makers of standing desks? http://paulgraham.com/submarine.html

Or you can build your own? It's actually really easy to make a A-frame standing desk.

Good one, the standing desk lobby is way too powerful imo

It's time we stood up to Big Ergo.

Just because there are many lies out there doesn't mean it's all lies.

i agree with others that the standing desk industry doesn't hold much sway, but at the same time, if some experts say sitting is the most dangerous thing a person does in a day, then some experts are laughably stupid.

why is this sort of thing so common? these articles taking a common fact of life and using it to tell their readers they're doing it wrong and killing themselves and everyone they love? why is that such a common tactic for getting eyeballs? i guess because it works. but is it good for people to injest so much of this?

to be clear, i'm not saying that there aren't adverse health effects from sitting too much, and i'm sure there's good science to back that up, but there's a lot of good science, most of which never gets a writeup in bloomberg. so why do we get so much of "dangers of sitting", or "you're walking all wrong", and on and on?

because in the past 30 years many more jobs have become just sitting around all day?

Sitting around all day is a relatively new phenomenon. And more than just sitting, but sitting basically in the same place all day.

I don't think it's an exaggeration to say that office behavior is one of the main factors in your health, considering it's 8 hours of the day

Remember. Habits require easy accessibility.

You can make an adjustable desk for $0. I can take a recycle bin, trash can, cardboard box, another chair, books, another desk, --and place this item on top of any desk -- then just set my macbook on that. You don't need a $500 electrical moving standing desk - they are annoying. I currently have my macbook on top of a planter on top of a desk (the height is perfect). I worked for 6 months ontop of 3 large legos.

If you need to be hipster or require a mouse you can splurge on a nice one for $29.

https://oristand.co/

It's not that easy when you use a multi monitor setup when doing work.

Granted, I could use a standing setup when I am just using my computer/laptop for leisure.

Yup, I’ve been using the following setup for years:

1. My monitor sits on a cardboard box and an old inkjet printer.

2. My keyboard and mouse are on a nice, wooden plank on top of two stacks of cheap books.

Eh, I'd never stand up if I had to do all that. I prefer pressing a button to raise the desk to my preferred standing height.

Also, I use 3 screens. I'd like to see "oristand" do that!

Or just get a tall chair & desk, or boost the chair up on a platform. Sit when you want to, stand when you want to, same desk height.

I know this well, but standing for more than about an hour is torture on my back. (I suspect my flat feet and tight hips contribute here.) I have no idea how to fix this.

Tight hips—and mobility improvement in general—is very likely something you can address. I'd encourage you to look into yoga or exercise programs that emphasize functional mobility. You might want to check out the Kelly Starret's Mobility WOD[0], which has a bunch of short videos that provide pointers on diagnosing and addressing mobility issues. He talks about sitting, standing and posture in particular that you might find useful.

[0] https://www.mobilitywod.com

Our founder is actually coming to Seattle (if you're still there as your profile says) over Labor Day - maybe you can join one of her Free Workshops to get an intro?

Esther did a talk at Google in Mountain View in 2008 > http://gokhalemethod.com/video/authorsgoogle maybe she could do one at Google in Seattle during her trip? Get in touch! info@gokhalemethod.com

Cheers

Get a standing mat to help with foot discomfort and work your way up.

Week 1 - 10 min stand, 50 min sit.

Week 2 - 20 min stand, 40 min sit.

Week 3 - etc...

Postural muscles take time to develop. Do the Agile 8 every day to work on your flexibility. https://www.t-nation.com/training/defranco-agile-8

The shortcut to an iron back is deadlifts, find a quality trainer and get in the gym for 30-45min 3x a week and you'll really improve.

Daily mobility work (even just 5 minutes in the evening makes a difference when done daily) combined with a hip hinge exercise a couple of times a week does indeed work wonders (it did for me).

As an alternative to the deadlift, I'd like to suggest the two-arm kettlebell swing. While there's no magic bullet in training, the kettlebell swing seems to come pretty close [1]. Plus, you can get one for home/work if you don't want to go to the gym.

I would however second the recommendation of learning exercise technique from a qualified trainer, particularly for hip hinge exercises - most adults, myself included, seem to suck surprisingly hard at what is one of the most fundamental human movements.

In case you do decide to go the YouTube route however, at least learn from a quality resource like StrongFirst [2], there's too many technique videos ranging from ineffective to plain dangerous.

[1] http://www.strongfirst.com/optimizing-back-health-with-the-k...

[2] https://youtu.be/ZQEFc6rSKvA

I got plantar fasciitis from using a standing desk for 18 months. of course I switched to the standing desk to cure a bad back from sitting

I'm going through the bad back from sitting (and being sedentary in general).

I've got a standing desk as well. But standing is no substitute for exercise, which is what your back really needs - both the movement and the strengthening.

Just deadlift.

3x per week. Start with an empty bar, then add 5lbs to the bar each time you deadlift. Once it gets so heavy that you can't add anymore, just back off to 1-2x per week and maintain the weight on the bar. It'll take you about 20 minutes each time and the bar and plates will take up about 4 square feet in your living room or garage when not in use.

Here's how you deadlift: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGZrATR1O4E

You can get a barbell and plates on Craigslist for $250. If you decide that it ain't for you, you can sell your barbell and plates on Craigslist for $250. So there is no financial downside. But it has the potential to be the best $250 you have ever spent. On anything.

I can pull twice my bodyweight, actually.

Tight psoas could be a problem. When it's tight, it pulls your lower back vertebrae forward, creating significant shear force. There are stretches specifically for psoas. Try them, they might help.

Ah, was just playing the odds with my response. My experience is that aches and pains are generally the result of the fact that most people are quite weak. Clearly not the case for you!

apparently weight lifting is bad for you: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/09/060915204024.h...

I'd have to say that the benefits of weight lifting probably outweigh the slight chance you'll get some form of glacouma.

The title of the page you link to is "Weightlifting Increases Pressure Within The Eye". That is not at all the same thing as it being overall bad for you. The worst thing mentioned in the article is "Prolonged weightlifting could be a potential risk factor for the development or progression of glaucoma (an eye disease)".

Deadlift won't particularly help here. Humans weren't designed to just stand still for an hour. Most people can go for a leisurely walk for an hour and end up feeling better than just standing still for an hour.

Agree with you. Turns out the person I responded to is already quite strong (pulls twice their body weight), so my advice obviously won't work for them. But, generally speaking, most people are quite weak and getting stronger is usually the easiest way to deal with aches and pains.

Agreed! I've been pulling for years and have never had any back hip or knee problems, and am very active in sports. Still doesn't help me standing still for a long time though:)

Yeah, standing absolutely stock still is probably going to hurt for anybody, but getting stronger made it much easier for me to work at a standing desk for extended periods of time (1-2 hours). Of course, I'm not standing absolutely still, but back when I was weak I could hardly make it 20 minutes.

Same problem here, but good shoes and off-the-shelf orthotic inserts have made a big difference.

Have a stretching regimen, watch your posture, change your position often during work (I do so even in a chair), and do some decent physical activity that involves your back. Gardening is a popular one that keeps seniors structurally sound. Volunteer work, tinkering with cars, handymanning around the house, taking care of lingering projects like that can really help and have more benefits than just moving weights back and forth. However, the latter is also pretty simple if you can keep yourself doing it regularly.

Make sure to have good shoes. If you suspect your flat feet are a contributor, head to the foot doctor where you will likely get a custom insole. My sister did the very thing years ago and it keeps her feet/ankles from hurting most of the time. The major downside is that she can't wear many "women's summer shoes" or some dress shoes since the insert won't fit.

You mentioned you can DL 2xBW. Do you do a lot of ab/core work in addition to the DLs?

For many people back pain is actually caused by weak abdominals. The imbalance puts things out of whack. I also DL heavy (2-3x BW at my best), and if I also was not crushing my abs I would get back pain.

The body can be a mysterious machine.

So I had all this: insulin problems, hypertension, anxiety and other problems.

I can say this is a real problem you should not underestimate.

But I can't agree with the title. I believe the underlying problem is lack of muscle movement. So standing all day will give you the same problems.

Muscles are a glucose buffer working tightly together with insulin. When this buffer doesn't work well your metabolism also doesn't work as expected and you will get all kinds of problems.

Take care of yourself and move as much as possible throughout the day.

Also sitting position I suppose. Sitting on the side of my bed is not the same as sitting on top of it. It puts pressure under my thighs and with bad blood flow would make my whole legs feel bad.

I think it's important to keep in mind as with all things, correlation doesn't automatically mean causation - less healthy people are probably more likely to be drawn to less active jobs, for instance. Maybe there is a randomised intervention study that's been done?

I only mean this statement partly in jest.

Buy everyone on your floor a Nerf gun.

This happened once in my office.

It wasn't as cool as it sounds, and also it just led to a lot of shooting each other from our desks.

That's the intent? A handful of us in my office have guns. The novelty wears off once you get sick of retrieving the ammunition. This is why my comment was only partly in jest.

My personal experience with getting away from my desk and walking more was spurred on from the discomfort of my DIY standing desk that I made (instructions for the desk are found at [0] and are not my own) and to quit smoking. I sustituted cigarettes with vaping and it's done more for my health and encouraging regular movement than I expected or intended.

YMMV of course, I live in a sub-tropical city in Australia and I'm fortunate enough to have a gorgreous river bank [1] and Botanical gardens at my offices offices front door [1]. You'd be less inclined to be outside in Middlesbrough in the UK where I am from or say, Seattle.

[0] - http://www.ikeahackers.net/2012/07/on-off-standing-desk-a-la...

[1] - https://www.google.com.au/search?q=Brisbane+city&client=fire...

[2] - https://www.google.com.au/search?client=firefox-b-ab&biw=192...

That would work for my office, except we're all adults and professionals.

I once brought in ~20 "Koosh" balls[0] (soft fluffy plastic balls) and gave everyone a few. We started off having skirmishes every few hours, until it got boring after a couple weeks. We then resorted to just throwing them at each other when deep in work, laughing when people screamed because they weren't expecting to be hit in the head. It really was a joyous time.. and magically we didn't destroy any monitors even though there was a minimum 50% chance it would hit the screen instead of your intended target. 6 months later and the balls are just sitting in the same place they were last put down, except for the random passer-by who asks what they are used for... upon which we are motivated to take up arms one more time, albeit while we are all sitting at our desks.

The next attempt was a few "airzooka" air canons[1]. Same result as above more or less, except our operation got shut down much earlier, as everyone else at the office complained that they were too loud (they really are much too loud).

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koosh_ball [1]: http://www.thinkgeek.com/product/60b6

Another perspective, "Sitting: Is It Hurting You?" > https://gokhalemethod.com/blog/63827

Cut sitting time to less than three hours a day, one group of researchers found, and you could lengthen your life expectancy by two years

I care more about my quality of life than my life expectancy. Will I get 2 more years of quality life (decent mobility, self reliance, good mental health), or 2 more years of being confined to a bed in a nursing home as my mental faculties fade away?

Would 2 years of pleasure be preferable to 4 years of torture? Where would the balance be for you?

Edit: Was updated to be more in-line with Parent's comment, and less direct.

What happens after those 2 years or 20 [1] years? And then I die?

I'd take the pleasure.

[1] The post originally said "20" years then updated to 4 years, but my answer is the same.

To some, it's the same as asking if you'd rather eat tasty meals and live until 62 - or never enjoy what you eat, and constantly torture yourself with exercise, and live until 80.

May you maximize both your years and your prosperity.

I'm 65.

Being dead three years ago does not appeal to me!

I'm willing to bet that's an age-independent invariant :).

Sounds like questions only you can answer.

How can I answer that? I'm not a medical researcher or statistician. And since I'm not a cat, I can't determine it empirically.

I feel like there's a type error in even asking that question, because you're comparing a distribution over people with a concrete person. Like a homeless person with no income hearing that the average household income is $52,000 and wondering which president is on his dollar bills, or whether the number of $1 bills within his portion is prime.

Assume the 2 years is evenly distributed across the rest of your life. Meaning each day at a given level of "health" is extended by the fraction of 2 years

Why would we assume that other than that it might make us feel better?

I don't have a great answer for other motives and it seems like a diffucult prediction to draw strong conclusions on. However, it's certainly not binary, so I'd argue that the possibly of making us 'feel better' is reason enough to assume.

I'm guessing that if you do something to improve your health enough that it adds years to your life, the rest of your health should be improved as well.

Meaning, maybe standing also improves your back and you ache less in later years.

It's hard for me to imagine doing something that improves your life expectancy at the expense of some part of your body.

This is massive speculation on my part.

This isn't a valid general principle. People who quit smoking late in life add extremely low-quality disabled life years.

As a general principal, I would disagree with the position that it's not valid. Certainly some people who quit smoking late in life prolong a painful cancerous demise, however I would imaging the worst of the low-quality disabled years are often a result of the limited, desperate nature of the available potential life-saving treatments: radiation/chemotherapy, etc. A significant percentage of smokers quit late in life and avoid those extremely low-quality disabled life years. Also, it seems perspective typically changes as 'quality of life' decreases, generally resulting in the desire for continued respiration;-)

Short version: you're thinking lung cancer. It's not, it's COPD, and it's near ubiquitous for people who have smoked a while.

Anybody can drive, not everybody can go hike up the mountain and experience nature's full beauty. If you think sitting on your ass is quality of life, you are missing out.

I've found 1-2 walks around the parking lot per day to be a great boost to my well-being. I usually do it solo (escape from open office overload), though at my last job one of the more senior people would usually round up a core group for a good half hour walk.

If anything, taking active breaks has been good for my career. Often I go when I finish a task/segment and the quiet, outdoor time give my mind a chance to wander and put things in context so that I can choose my next tasks effectively.

It's anecdotal, but I suspect that the people who eat lunch at their desk and don't get up all day aren't actually creating more value than those who take some time. A quick search indicates there are at least some studies backing this up [1]. I'd be curious if there is evidence that points the other way though.

[1]http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/8548292

I was working in visual effects where we were doing 9 to 11 hours per day of work at a desk. Nearly everyone ending up buying their own varidesk (varidesk.com) I can't recommend them highly enough, especially if you work at an office where you are provided a regular desk. Varidesks just sit on top of your regular desk. I liked using a standing desk so much, I bought a Geek Desk for home use. geekdesk.com If you get one, be sure to get a standing desk floor mat as well.

I'd like to be able to sit much of the time but have frequent short periods of standing. But even adjustable standing desks don't really facilitate that well, and most of the adjustable standing desks I've seen are _worse_ sitting desks than a standard one.

My solution it to sit but every 45 minutes go for a 1 minute walk around the office. I'm not sure it's very effective but can't hurt too much

Like anything health related, it really depends on many factors (overall health, genetics, other risk factors) as to weather sitting will have a significant effect on your health. For some, it may never affect them much. But, it won't be a short term thing - you won't know until after many years of sitting. The negative effects of sitting aren't the kinds of things you can reverse.

And not one mention of developing blood clots

Or hemorrhoids.

I have one of those under-desk exercise bikes. I don't know if it has any overall effect on my health, but it keeps the circulation going anyway.

I definitely recommend this particular model. It's smooth and quiet, works under a normal height desk, and is heavy enough that it doesn't slide around.

https://www.amazon.com/DeskCycle-Exercise-Pedal-Exerciser-Wh...

On modern occupational hazards....

"Alex, I'll take circular saws for $500"

Perspective people, perspective.

I would say it's safe to assume most people here sit A LOT.

So what's the state of research regarding whether you can make up for it with vigorous activity?

Does sitting itself cause problems? Seems to be some hidden variable.

Last I remember (don't remember the source) they found that vigorous exercise elsewhere in the day doesn't make up for it.

The article says there is research that contradicts that though.

Try sitting on an https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exercise_ball

And yet they say standing desks are just as bad and that it's the lack of movement.

reclining workstation ftw, and getting worthy exercise elsewhere... allows for it all, better sleep and better feeling back that I've had in years.

If sitting is so bad why is meditation considered to be so good an' healthy?

http://images.huffingtonpost.com/2014-11-19-ChairSittingGood...

My guess is this problem is not to do with sitting per se; it's how your (partly unconscious) attention is distributed. It's not just work/gaming/movie that requires bandwidth, the body needs some too. If you can't walk about then better posture and even little things like wiggling your toes might be helpful.

Maybe because you don't meditate for longer than an hour and sitting for less than an hour is unlikely to give you blood clots.

Some people pay to meditate for days on end!

GP about blood clots. Likelihood of clotting also depends on sympathetic arousal:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2629605/

So stimulation arising from eating food, drinking coffee, work stress, etc, whilst being seated would be a double whammy.

Sitting isn't a prerequisite for meditation and improving your physical health isn't the point of it either, as far as I know.

Improving physical health is a goal of some types of meditation. It's hard to generalize about meditation in a useful way, because the term covers such a wide range of traditions. It's a bit like trying to generalize about religion (not coincidentally).

Different type of sitting. I would guess the cross-legged, straight-back position is great for your core, as well as improving hip and knee flexibility.

Yes, if you are meditating. However not if you are, say, programming and drinking coffee. The use of the mind while sitting is typically ignored in these studies, I think because it's hard to measure and thus considered subjective and non-scientific (despite being relevant here).

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