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Comment by dguo | Hacker News Reader

I wish smartphone manufacturers would shift the focus from making better cameras to improving battery life. The performance of every phone becomes zero once the battery runs out. This review claims excellent battery life, but for me to really find the phone compelling, the battery life needs to be more than excellent so that I can believe it will still be able to last a full day two years after I get it. Are magnetic accessories really that great if I'll have to get a new core phone anyway once the battery gives out (from what I understand, the Essential Phone's battery is not replaceable)?

Before 360 degree pictures, VR, or a better AI assistant, I just want a phone that I'm actually willing to use as much as I'd like to instead of dimming down the screen to the point that I can barely see it when I know I'm going to be away from a charger for most of the day.

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The market has spoken and by far people prefer thinner lighter phones than greater battery life. It's silly to build a fat heavy long battery life phone because it can only ever address the preferences/needs of a small niche.

A thin light phone can always add greater battery life with a battery case, so it can address both markets. My wife is a heavy user, I got her Apple's battery case for her iPhone 6, and she loves it (it's actually works really well). And she can always take it off if she tires of it's heft.

The market had spoken in 2003 - people wanted phones with small screens that were indestructible and lasted a couple of days in terms of battery life. Then the iphone happened.

That's not a reasonable reply though. Thicker phones were made and they flopped in the market.

I'd be happier if software updates did not screw up battery life every now and then, like they do on Nexus.

Did they flop because they were thicker, or because they had any other failing?

That's a fair question. My reading is that their only differentiating factor was battery, but that wasn't accepted.

OTOH, you can never prove that a thicker phone with higher battery life succeeded was because of extended life :)

People who build the vast majority of phones believe thicker hurt sales.

And they do lots of market research. I'm pretty sure their market researchers aren't telling them customers want thicker with longer battery life and the phone makers are just responding "oh no they don't!" Even if all the phone makers in the world ignored customer's wishes, it would only take one company to listen to market research and suddenly dominate the market to change everything.

The market speaks every year. And it continues to say no to heavy duty battery life phones. If someone ever designs one that comes with substantive user benefits that thin phones can't provide, fat phones can become a standard again.

But again, thin phones can provide as much battery life as you want, just add a battery case. It's like demanding Porsche include permanent, unremovable trailers on every 911, because some minority of users wants to occasionally tow stuff with their sportscar.

How can a market "speak" when there's no way of buying anything but the same practially 99% copied black slab for each company?

The basis of market competition (and the ability for market to "speak") is the concept of choice. In mobile phone market there is little choice and the device themselves are more than a single feature.

May I suggest a thought experiment? Imagine you cannot use a smartphone for a period of 12 months; certainly, you would expend a not insignificant effort in finding a very capable flip-phone, or other mobile option, combined with perhaps two or three other devices (GPS, MP3 player) which would adequately replicate these smartphone features.

Now apply that mental effort to seeking a suitably differentiated mobile phone and I am sure you will find success.

Here is a list of 20 hour battery life phones. You may note they aren't best sellers.

https://www.cnet.com/news/smartphones-best-long-battery-life...

While there is lots of similarities, every phone is differentiated in some way. You want bigger differences but right now bigger differences aren't perceived as a plus by most users.

exactly.

in 2003 people wanted "phones."

in 2017 people want computers in their pockets, without thinking of them as "computers"

my question:

how long until we abandon the mental modal and service contract model of these being "phones?"

[edit: formatting]

I tried to buy a google pixel from the verizon store to do some VR programming and they wouldn't sell it to me without a contract. I'm standing there trying to hand them $800 for a product they have on the shelves and they refused. It was a very strange moment.

They make less money on the phone sale than a contract sale, and the pixels have been supply constrained, so I don't know why you're so surprised.

The stupid part about that desire is that most consumers put their phone in an ugly, terrible feeling case and make the phone just as thick as if they had improved the battery life.

As a device designer the demand for thinness strikes me as something where customers demand something that they really don't care about in practice, but think they do when they are buying the device and holding it in a store so they need to design devices like this. Related to this, the whole camera bump thing just flabbergasts me. Does anyone really think a phone that wobbles when you place it on the table is worth 1mm of thickness reduction?

Unfortunately, I've come to realize that nobody is ever going to build the phone I want, because it just doesn't market well compared to everything else on the market, even though I'm convinced it meets the needs of far more people than the invariably flawed devices every manufacturer is putting out these days.

The foolproof way of extending battery life, which is to make the phone thicker, has been roundly rejected by the marketplace (and there are many benefits to limiting the number of models, so most manufacturers won't make an "extended battery" model). Battery life is also important to me so I take an external battery everywhere I go.

The solution to this seems to be to purchase one of the very popular phones -- a Samsung Galaxy or an iPhone being the two sure bets I'm aware of -- and adding one of the cases that includes an integrated supplemental battery.

Pricey and somewhat bulky, but it works.

Plus, if the battery in the case goes, you can replace it. My friend had a case for her S6 from Mo-something-or-other, that had a "lifetime" warranty, and when the case battery became borked, she did indeed get a warranty replacement relatively painlessly -- though she did have to do it via mail with Mo-whatever, even though she purchased the case from one of her carrier's bricks and mortar stores.

This was a disappointment for me with my Nexux 5X; when the battery seemed to be coming up a bit "short", I found no source for a case having an integrated supplemental battery.

Take your pick: http://www.gsmarena.com/results.php3?nYearMin=2017&nBatCapac...

P.S. Don't you just love it when URLs are super readable?

results? YearMin=2017 & BatCapacityMin=5000

That tells you the capacity of the battery, but not the battery life of the phone.

Due to all sorts of factors (screen size, screen type, software, processor…) a phone can have a much larger battery and still worse battery life that the phone you have in your hand.

gsmarena sucks compared to www.kimovil.com

i will be happy if someone will find me better mobile comparison website which provides also links to various shops

I absolutely agree. I was fortunate to see what this looks like a couple weeks ago when I went camping for three nights.

My Galaxy S6 had a "Max" Power-Saving Mode that only allows 8 apps to be used during that time, four of which are pre-chosen (internet, phone, and a couple others) and the other four can be chosen from a curated list of apps that I assume are capable of the mode (including maps). Since I was out of range, I also kept my phone in airplane mode so it wouldn't waste battery trying to connect to anything.

I pretty much only used the phone for the camera, and maps. After two days I was at about 75% battery, which was excellent. Then I dropped into "Min" Power-Saving Mode for about an hour so I could take panorama shots. That dropped my battery to around 55%.

All in all, I was impressed. It reminded me of our pre-touch-screen phones of a decade ago. It would be incredible if I could get that much battery life with normal daily use.

I recently replaced my phone with a Galaxy S8. The battery use is far better, but I'm still not getting more than a day and a half out of normal daily use.

I'm pretty sure everyone wants this, but it will likely require the development of a new battery chemistry that doesn't yet exist (or ubiquitous wireless charging). Lithium battery capacity is determined by the battery's volume. Most flagship phones have the largest possible battery that can be fit into a phablet form factor and do a good job optimizing draw when the phone is idle. There are ways to reduce battery degradation, but it's usually easier to just replace the battery after 2 years.

No, it'll just require that you will accept a thicker phone.

Since many people wrap their phones in faux leather covers that contain two handfuls of credit cards, I'd say that's very plausible.

But also, you can already buy extended battery pack covers for most popular phones (just google "battery case <phone model>). Which almost nobody seems to do. So maybe battery life isn't such a biggie?

I personally don't consider buying a battery case because an external portable powerbank seems easier to use.

So, the market has indeed spoken: you can buy these powerbanks on every corner, which indicates a demand for increased battery capacity.

Perhaps not in the form of a battery case, which only works with one device, though.

A thicker phone will increase capacity but it won't satisfy the parent's request: "I can believe it will still be able to last a full day two years after I get it."

All commercially available battery chemistries degrade over time. Lithium ion cells typically degrade over 2 years. Only a new battery chemistry can change this.

i dunno when 8.3mm became thick phone considering Lenovo P2 is able to pack there 5000mAh

So get something like https://www.motorola.com/us/products/moto-mods/moto-turbopow...

I have that. It's a beast.

I got a phone last week that has "more than excellent" battery life: Asus Zenphone 3 Zoom.

With two days of heavy use I still had 15% left. It also is good or great in just about every other category.

Nice. I'll definitely be looking for a phone like that when my current contract is up.

I also mentioned the Moto Z Play (not the Z2 Play) which easily does 2-3 days of standby (I'm looking at my GFs phone right now and it's sitting on 73% after a full day).

You can add a moto mod with additional battery capacity further boosting that to probably something like 5-6 days.

Why does one need more than a single day of heavy use? Is charging while you sleep an issue?

What if you want to go camping, or go to a concert in a far away city (you can sleep on the train, but not charge your phone there), or crash in a friends house and you forgot to bring a charger (maybe they don't have a USB-C phone)?

2 days seems enough for most use cases, although I miss having phones with batteries that lasted for a week or more.

We take our el cheapo Moto Gs camping. With everything except calls/texts turned off, and using them only a couple of minutes each day, they last about 4 days before we have to break out the solar power bank.

Why don't you buy a battery pack as those are rare occasions (don't need all that battery weight for day to day use) and batteries are cheap nowadays.

I'd generally be happy with a full day of heavy use, but a phone that can last that long when it's brand new won't be able to do it 1-2 years later because of battery degradation after many charge cycles.

"Need" is a strong word. It would be a luxury, in my case. I'd really like a phone that could take two days of heavy use, for the times that I forget to charge it the night before, and spend the next day constantly on the move. Or even my usual "Damn it, I have to get out of bed to plug the phone in..."

Then again, everything that it does beyond talk+text is already a luxury. Why not wish for one more?

Lenovo P2 Redmi 4 Pro Redmi note 4

are all great phones except camera department, you can run Lineage of all of them

Agree with the sentiment that better battery life is needed.

Disagree with the premise that battery life is suffering due to camera engineering/effort. Battery life could be instantly improved by just making a slightly (in absolute terms) thicker phone. They don't need better battery through chemistry; just the will to be thicker.

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