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leereeves

Some of the "lefties" were peaceful.

Some of them came armed with pepper spray, urine bombs, baseball bats, shields, helmets, etc.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2017/08/12/pr...

Some of them attacked reporters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jufZItpL3o0

A NY Times reporter said:

> The hard left seemed as hate-filled as alt-right. I saw club-wielding "antifa" beating white nationalists being led out of the park

https://twitter.com/SherylNYT/status/896575560650035200

It's deeply unfortunate that peaceful people were caught in the middle of that, but both sides share responsibility for the violence.

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Your quoted person:

> Rethinking this. Should have said violent, not hate-filled. They were standing up to hate.

They are not the same. First off: disclaimer: I'm not condoning any violence, but this is a fact:

There would be no antifa without far right extremists. There would be far right extremists regardless.

One is an admittedly on occasion violent antibody, but an antibody to a disease nonetheless. They might share blame, but extremely far from parity.

> There would be no antifa without far right extremists.

They weren't fighting "far right extremists" at the G20 summit.

Antifa is violent. Full stop. That's independent of the equally bad people who are sometimes on the other side.

I was at G20. We did not initiate the violence, it was initiated by the police on Thursday by attacking the peaceful demonstration (which had even unmasked in the majority, as ordered by police).

Source: Witnessed everything from a bridge above the watercannons.

> which had even unmasked in the majority, as ordered by police

Honestly I find such an order repugnant. Anonymity is crucial to free speech, especially when protesting a group as powerful as G20. I'm sure no-one thinks they should be forced to report their political activity to their employer (at least judging from the outcry when the Trump administration requested all those IP addresses), but such an order is effectively exactly that.

In fact, masking is a felony in Germany and can land you in jail for up to one year.

> They weren't fighting "far right extremists" at the G20 summit.

This doesn't negate anything I said.

> Antifa is violent. Full stop.

On occasion, their ideals aren't.

> That's independent of the equally bad people who are sometimes on the other side.

Again, not equal, and again, wouldn't exist without Nazis.

> Again, not equal, and again, wouldn't exist without Nazis.

Antifa is also "anticapitalist".

https://twitter.com/NYCAntifa/status/882475842802262016

They would exist without Nazis. In fact, Charlottesville may be the first time they've actually fought Nazis.

> They would exist without Nazis. In fact, Charlottesville may be the first time they've actually fought Nazis.

> The first German movement to call itself Antifaschistische Aktion was proclaimed by the German Communist Party (KPD) in their newspaper Rote Fahne in 1932 and held its first rally in Berlin on 10 July 1932, then capital of the Weimar Republic. During the early 1930s amidst rising tensions between Nazis and the communists, Berlin in particular has been the site of regular and often very violent clashes between the two groups.

I'm talking about the people who call themselves Antifa now, not everyone who's ever used that name.

There's no direct connection between those people in 1932 and these people in 2017, except using the same name.

> I'm talking about the people who call themselves Antifa now, not everyone who's ever used that name.

> There's no direct connection between those people in 1932 and these people in 2017, except using the same name.

And you're basing this on what?

The many years that passed between the two.

I fully agree with you. Thanks.

Also, read this post by Daniel Sieradsky. It perfectly sums up why ANY comparison between Nazis and Antifa is totally invalid: https://twitter.com/NYCAntifa/status/898528286325723136

That post claims left-wing terrorists are responsible for less violence.

A quick look at the Global Terrorism Database for 2016 (the most recent year available) calls that into question:

https://www.start.umd.edu/gtd/search/Results.aspx?page=1&cas...

According to that, either Muslim or left-wing (anti-white or anti-police) extremists were responsible for all the fatalities in 2016, save one attack for which the motive is unknown.

> According to that, either Muslim or left-wing (anti-white or anti-police) extremists were responsible for all the fatalities in 2016, save one attack for which the motive is unknown.

First off, you're taking liberties in assigning those to left-wing extremism without a basis.

Here's some more data, over a longer period:

Quoting ADL's Murder and Extremism in the United States in 2016 report [1] (focus on domestic terrorism):

Killings between 2001-2010 by:

Left-Wing Extremists | Right-Wing Extremists | Domestic Islamic Extremists

2 | 24 | 0

Between 2011-2016:

8 | 10 | 1

[1] https://www.adl.org/sites/default/files/documents/MurderAndE...

Left-wing violence is on the rise. All of those 8 people killed by the left were in 2016 (Dallas and Baton Rouge attacks on police officers), none of the people killed by the right were (unless the ADL is mysteriously counting the killing of an Imam in NYC by a Hispanic man whose motive is unknown as "right-wing").

That's assuming the ADL's numbers are right and none of the other people the GTD called "anti-police extremists" were left-wing, which appears to be incorrect. [1]

The "rise of the violent left", as The Atlantic called it, is a depressing trend.

Anyway, I have to go and won't be able to respond until tomorrow. Have a great day.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_killings_of_NYPD_officers

> All of those 8 people killed by the left were in 2016,

8 police officers shot by radical BLM activists. I don't like that kind of action either, but given that PoC are routine walking target circles for police, I certainly get how the two activists were motivated - and there is a difference between taking revenge on murderers versus murdering people just because they're black/jewish/...

And: according to ADL (https://www.adl.org/education/resources/reports/murder-and-e...), however, Nazis did commit two triple-murders (bringing their tally for 2016 to 6), and it's the first year that Nazis were not the absolute dominator on the murder statistics since over 30 years (9/11 was not domestic terrorism). This one year is nothing to prove a trend turn.

Almost out the door but a real quick response:

> Anti-government extremists and white supremacists were responsible for only a minority of extremist related deaths in 2016, though they did commit two triple homicides.

Unfortunately they don't identify those incidents. The GTD doesn't list any triple homicides by the right. Let me know if you can find out what they're talking about here.

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