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Comment by agnsaft | Hacker News Reader

At this point, the only thing I care about is whether or not they plan on releasing quality software updates in a timely manner for a reasonable amount of time...

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I can see (though don't entirely agree) why companies feel some pain, when the customer paid for the phone, but the public's expectation is free updates for "life" (however you define that). I wonder if having a subscription where they reduce the cost of the phone for the general population, and let others sign up for a paid subscription model for updates, backed up by some kind of SLA type agreement would work. I definitely would prefer a model where instead of finding other ways to screw you (selling data) they get paid by me and serve my needs.

It's moot.

Apple offers ~3 years of software updates included in the price of the phone.

Right now, Android companies COMPLETELY FAIL to match Apple's update value.

The idea that Android companies should switch to a paid update subscription model, while iDevices retain free updates for most of device life, would be a hilariously incompetent decision.

"They're better than us, we know it, so why not subscribe to us and pay us monthly to help us catch up to what they were doing a decade ago?"

Isn't it more like 4 years, at least on the Phones?

I wouldn't mind getting an additional Android device, but two years of upgrades really isn't enough. It's nice to get a new OS upgrade every year.

It can be around 5 years, the iPhone 4S technically had the latest version of iOS from October 2011 to June 2016.

iOS 10 launched in September 2016, and I think the 4s was kept current up until then.

Also five years for the iPhone 5 (2012-2017). since iOS 11 supports the iPhone 5s, it will also get its fifth years of updates. (Hopefully more! Mine is still going strong, the arm64 processor was revolutionary.)

Five years does not seem to be an outlier for iPhones anymore.

Taking the 4S as an example because that was my old phone:

    Launched October 2011 (w/ iOS 5.0)
    Discontinued September 2014
    Last OS update August 2016 (iOS 9.3.5)
    OS becomes outdated September 2016 (iOS 10 released)

So even if you bought it at the tail end of its availability, you had two years of updates. If you bought it when they were new, you got 5 years of updates.

For reference, the September 2016 release of iOS 10 (which the 4S didn't get) corresponds to the iPhone 7 release. Software for the 4S was maintained through the releases of 5, 5S, 6, and 6S.

Granted it chugged a bit on the newer OSes and developers (especially 3rd party and web developers) started to waste enormous chunks of screen space because they collectively didn't give a shit about anyone who still had a 4" phone, but it's better treatment than you'd have gotten with any Android phone.

What confuses is me is what kind of work needs to go in to updating android on different phones? If Android is compatible with the architecture of the phone shouldn't the software update from Google work?

When you have as many types of hardware as Android supports, it becomes a shit show. iOS can do updates for longer because the hardware isn't all over the place.

Unfortunately there is no real standard hardware architecture for Android devices. Some pieces are the same, but every device has different incompatible components. So the device vendors have to re-apply a unique set of patches every time.

AFAIK, they don't use Google's software updates, because they have their own "distribution" that's mostly the same but slightly different from the vanilla Android version, so they need to merge those changes and test them before they can push the updates to the phones they made.

And even when Android phone manufacturers bring updates, you have no idea when it's going to be. At a minimum, months after the reference version comes out (excluding Google's line of course).

Except, you know, all Android manufacturers are free to support their OS as they see fit and have different update cycles.

The closest apples-to-apples comparison would be Google's Nexus and Pixel lines to iPhone. In that case, the Nexus 5 came out in 2013 and received updates into 2016, before being dropped for Nougat. Pretty much all of their phones have seen similar support (N4: 2012-2015, N6: 2014-present, etc).

It really shouldn't be difficult, it's not as if Intel is worrying about how to support some computer sold in 2009. The reason it's difficult is because the companies have chosen to set up a short term process which means reapplying and testing hacky patches to every upgrade. If they stopped forking the linux kernel and invested in putting their systems on the mainline they could have excellent support, and dust their hands of the product on day one.

Sony seems to be nudging in that direction with their unified kernel, which should mean they at least only have to backport hacks once. They also have some vague attempts at mainline support.

I've often wondered why it's so difficult to make a standardized OS distribution for ARM processors. You would think it should be as simple as

Google provides core OS -> manufacturers add drivers -> done

(Of course this skips the "manufacturers add shitware" step).

But I've been told ARM just doesn't work that way and for whatever reason that I don't completely understand, hardware can't be abstracted this way on ARM.

My understanding is that unlike the PC world where hardware can report itself or be found easily the way things tend to be connected on ARM boards make it so that's not feasible or even possible. Someone just has to tell the kernel up front what is where.

The cost of providing the updates should be priced into the MSRP. There is no excuse for not providing them if you care about your customers at all.

"But that other phone looks and works exactly the same and is $100 cheaper!"

They stated 2 years OS updates, 3 years monthly security updates in the blog post.

It's kind of funny what they follow that up with:

> Essential Phone will get guaranteed Android OS updates for 2 years and will get monthly security updates for 3 years, so your phone will always be secure and have the latest features.

I do not think the word "always" means what they think it means :)

If we go one level up the abstraction, always doesn't mean always either. The universe's life is finite. :)

You can't fool me. The universe doesn't exist.

Unconceivable!

I do not think it means what you think it means.

Inconceivable!

(Sorry, not a native English speaker)

It was a reference to Vizzini in The Princess Bride, not something wrong with your post, don't worry

Ah, I was confused since your quote was in the post I replied to in the first place.

The worst piece is that they usually measure from first day of sale, not last. If you buy this same phone next year, you'll only get a year of updates.

I am mostly moving on from an LG G2 to the new Essential Phone. For the past year I have been running AICP, currently at Android 7.1.x Prior to that I had about a year of Cyanogenmod.

Granted, third party roms are not for the average user but it amazes me how few on HN seem to run them and instead whine about why their 3 or 4 year old phone is no longer getting the latest greatest. People here like to point to Apple/iOS but really, how many of the iPrecious users are still on an iphone 4 or 5? Seems that crowd rolls over every 12 to 18 months so what difference does it make?

Its scary that this is impressive for Android, while still 2+ years less than ios. (iPhone 5s will get ios 11)

Exactly. This point does not get sufficient attention to make it a competitive advantage. And it absolutely should be!

Yup, that grabbed my attention, too (so much so that I find a find-in-page for "2 years"). I had no idea things were that bad.

periods like that make phones feel more like a hardware subscription service:

(with protection plan) $5 per week for 3 years for security updates

$7.60 per week for 2 years for OS updates

It is still end of life after 3 years.

Too short IMO, I personally would value having a 5yo device still useful, above that I can accept limitations in terms of new; below it's just pushing for renewal for no reason.

Batteries don't last that long still, last I heard you get about 1000 charges before you need to do serious maintenance to a phone, in which case you'll probably want the latest and greatest anyhow.

I don't know, most of my phones are 4 years old and battery life is ok.

in which case you'll probably want the latest and greatest anyhow.

Why, if it still works fine?

//Nexus 7 (2012) user here

Oh and btw, it's very possible that speed is a software issue. Latest gmail app update tweaked a few things in how mailboxes are loaded and it's way snappier.

I have a moto g3 quadcore and 1G(maybe 2G)RAM. I cannot reason about slow performance for non gaming / pixel heavy stuff.

I'm still using a Galaxy S3(2012) with no battery problems. I use it every day, and I don't even plug it in every night.

Amen to that. I just took this screenshot using an extended battery on my S3:

https://i.imgur.com/9dnRrA0.jpg

When I bought the extended battery kit it lasted from 3-5 days. 3 major Android releases later it is rivaling some dumbphones.

Not having to worry ever about battery life has been life-changing and I'm not going back.

I just paid someone to replace the battery in my Sony Xperia Z1 Compact, which is 3 years old this week.

It still works fine, although I do use Firefox with ad-blocking extensions. I doubt I'll need to replace it for at least another year.

But when the latest is NOT the greatest, I don't want the latest.

Anecdotal, but I have an Asus EEE from aeons ago (2010, I think?) that still has about 60%-70% battery health, which is not bad, considering that this little guy was brutally abused throughout its existence (it was my main PC in University).

I also have a first generation Moto G (~2014) and an app I have here (OS Monitor) reports 70% battery health. In practical terms, the battery lasts a day of normal usage.

On the other hand, I have a ~2 year old Toshiba, and Linux here is reporting 0% battery health and a "last full capacity" of 0 mAh. If I unplug it, it goes under in 5-10 minutes (factory battery life was about 2:30 hours).

I read that the biggest battery killer is heat, not charge/discharge cycles.

Regardless, and if I am not mistaken, that figure of 1000 charge cycles is for cycles of 100% discharge (or as close as you can get before the protection circuits cut in) followed by 100% charge. This rarely happens in the "real world" and thus that figure will probably be much higher when adjusted for real world conditions.

This is just another example of consumer hostile planned obsolescence. Rechargeable batteries are consumables. Most cell phones used to have removable batteries so when it wouldn't hold a charge any more you could easily replace. Now most phones have integrated batteries which can only be replaced with an expensive and inconvenient visit to a repair center.

You're niche. Most people don't care as long as their phone is fast and they can use their phone all day. By the time a phone's battery becomes unusably short (my iPhone 4s still holds a charge for about a full day), most people agree their phone is ready for replacement.

I agree. I am currently using my 2011/12 vintage Samsung Galaxy Note 2 (albeit as a play phone) with Lineage OS (Android 7.x) and it works pretty good. Batteries are getting harder to find but still available. It works great.

The simple fact that we have to rely on volunteers to have a recent OS on our phone shows how problematic updates are on Android. Hopefully Project Treble will make the lives of Lineage devs easier.

You have a good point. I am very grateful to Cyanogenmod and Lineage OS and contribute what I can - it really puts the vendor junkware with its non-removable bloatware to shame. I once wrote a giant rant on XDA Developers after spending a long night debugging a Nook HD+ tablet and its highly-obnoxious habit of reinstalling uninstalled bloatware on a reboot.

(Off-topic) I still prefer Android with its volunteer ecosystem due to the freedom it offers me with respect to my devices. I have tried to switch to iOS a couple of times due to my perception of their stronger privacy policies but my use cases, which I have been familiar with since the days of Palm, are incompatible with non-rooted iOS use models.

I really wonder if this is as long as Qualcomm guarantee's they update their binary blobs for compatibility with future Android updates.

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