Ask HN: Potentially Moving to SF / SV with a Family

School district homes in SV (3b 2b 1300sqft+) are in the 1.5M range or higher near the top employers in the Peninsula. If you're ok accepting a 40min+ commute, the cost reduces to about 900K Townhome + HOA in a good school district.

A family of 4 in the bay area with household income at $105350 is low income (http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/04/22/in-costly-bay-area-eve...). At 150K you'll be living in rented accommodations with $3K - $3500 in rent per month.

If you consider that your wife will start working, please be aware that daycare starts at about $1.5K++ per month (it might be advantageous for your wife to be a stay at home mom below a certain salary level).

I would recommend targeting a 200K+ total household income for this to work for you.

These numbers are in the ballpark, but the tweaks I'd make are not in the OP's favor. I don't think you're going to be able to find a 900K townhome in a good school district here unless you mean a 1 bedroom or studio. A year ago I was looking at the market and a 2 bedroom in a good school district was 950K but that was a 40-year-old building. HOA around $300.

Note to OP at the prices divyekapoor mentioned for rentals, you likely won't be in a house in a good school district, you'll be in an apartment. Or in a house or apartment in a bad school district. Alarmingly, even the options that you can't afford will still seem not good enough. Depressing, I know. If your Priuses are the plug-in type and you want to take advantage of that, your selection is further narrowed.

Other than that I agree with the above.. my comments are just tweaks.

I'm not sure you'll find a 3/2 even at that sqft in a decent school district. Redwood City has not great schools and the decent parts of it are around $1.6+ for a starter home from the 50's. Areas with good schools are probably closer to $1.6 or $1.7+. But I'd love to see some recently sold listing links proving me wrong

Source: recent comps from redfin.

You will be accepting a decline in quality of life to move to SF for work (increase in salary is not congruent with your increased expenses), and must decide if its worth it.

I'd suggest looking for full stack remote jobs where you'll make $100k-130k/year while remaining in Ohio (if thats where you want to live). Leaving a support system/family behind if you have a child (and considering another child) is not trivial.

Work remote, live better, visit SF once or twice a year for conferences to network and mingle.

> Leaving a support system/family behind if you have a child (and considering another child) is not trivial.

So much this. Soooo much.

I've been leaning toward that perspective recently.

I actually had a remote job in the pipeline but they ended up not being able to pay a commensurate salary or benefits (i.e. it was a significant pay cut from what I'm making now).

At least this process has got me back to studying data structures and algorithms again, so perhaps I can interview at Google Pittsburgh again and try for a better outcome this time. Any tips for finding a good remote position?

> Any tips for finding a good remote position?

Always be looking, and don't relax your criteria (compensation, work/life balance) because its remote.

Just because a position is advertised as on site doesn't mean you can't negotiate it to be remote.

Here are some remote job resources I keep bookmarked:

https://remotebase.io/

https://github.com/lukasz-madon/awesome-remote-job

https://remoteok.io/

https://weworkremotely.com/

https://stackoverflow.com/jobs/remote-developer-jobs

https://www.wfh.io/

https://jobmote.com/

Salary negotiation cheat sheet: http://salarytutor.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Salary-Tut...

As an SF resident of ~5 years, I agree with this.

$130k - $150k isn't really big money around here. You'll be able to live, but I suspect that you'll start to feel pretty quickly that your quality of life has been overall compromised since leaving Ohio. Real estate is the biggest expense — a $3k apartment won't even be a nice one, but you'll feel it everywhere — expensive meals, goods, lots of taxes, etc.

Long term prospects for property aren't great either. Property prices have been trending for a while in only one direction (straight up) and properties that would be considered very modestly nice in other cities are easy $1M+ in and around SF. Real estate agents play bidding games so everything goes for well above listing prices. NIMBY practices and regressive taxation laws (Prop 13) guarantee this isn't going to be fixed anytime soon.

As someone with a daughter, it's also worth considering that the public schooling system is in a pretty bad state. It seems that almost everyone will either use private if they can afford it, or move out to Marin or the South Bay so that their kids can go to a functional school. Don't take my word for it though, I have lots of anecdotes, but have never needed to seriously look into it, so do your own research.

Another big factor to consider is just the city itself, and how nice it is to be here. A combination of huge wealth disparity, unaffordable real estate/rent, poor treatment for the mentally ill, and moderate weather means that the number of deranged people that you'll meet on the streets and public transportation is way above average. Property crime is essentially rampant at this point (mostly in the form of smashed car windows and bike theft), and the police force is quite ineffective, so I don't expect that to go anywhere but up. If you're a reasonably sized guy it's all mostly tolerable (in that you don't really fear for your well being), but I'm not sure it's an environment that I'd want to raise children in. As far as I can tell, a lot of other industry workers just seem to take Uber/Lyft everywhere to avoid it.

All that said — SF is a fun city, and the nature around it is beautiful. It's one of the very few walkable/bikable cities in North America, which is great. As a tech person, it's also neat to be right in the thick of things.

I will concur with the others who are suggesting you explore remote options first. Besides the quality of life hit you would take in moving to SV, you are also increasing your risk if things don't work out. Start-ups, even well connected ones that seem like a sure thing, fail all the time. While your path to savings and local support network sounds like it will provide you with a nice cushion in Ohio, you would not have this in the bay area. With only one income in the family a six-month or more stretch of unemployment might be devastating.

Look for remote work, and see about building a network both in SV and NYC. The latter is a bit closer to you and you might find it easier to land a remote job with a NYC firm.

I think this is a myth. I went from making $55,000 per year as a software engineer in Virgina to making over $100,000 per year in the Bay Area (I'm not anonymous on here so keeping exact amount secret). My rent went from $1500 per month to $2100 per month. My salary increase has more than covered the increased cost of rent.

That works for a single person. Not so much for a family looking for a good school district.

I didn't grow up in a "good school district." In fact, we were frequently at, or near the bottom in local rankings. However I think I've managed to do all right in life -- the experiences a child learns from outside of school, from libraries to good parenting, to just being allowed to roam -- are way more important than what you learn in the classroom.

> could expect around $130k - $150k

I make that working remotely from Michigan for a company on the east coast. Costs and stress in SF will likely be substantial. I know, I went to college in the bay area.

> Renting seems in the $3K+ range for a two bedroom

Thats like half your monthly paycheck, no? Doesnt sound safe.

Unless your wife also got an offer making a comparable amount there is no way it would be worth it. I say this as someone that loves visiting Northern CA.

You should switch to remote and leverage your skills to make at least 120k. Enjoy the good life in the Midwest and travel.

Holy crap you're gonna be broke. Don't do it.

Expect to pay $3k-ish in the cheapest areas in the peninsula for an older 2 bedroom apartment. Now take all your expenses (eating out, gym, etc) and multiply by 2-3. Oh, and food is at least twice as expensive as in the Midwest (reference: when I fly home to see parents, I occasionally grocery shop for them.) My grocery bill is $700-$800/mo for 2 adults, plus $300/mo of munchery. (That said, I lift hard so I eat a lot of food. Still.)

I really need to emphasize that $3k is for a crappy apartment thrown up in the 80s for bottom dollar.

For comparison, friends rent a (small, crappy) detached 2 bedroom house with a 20x20 ft yard in Mountain View for $4700/mo.

If you want to be in eg Palo Alto Unified, expect to pay $5k-ish for a 3 bedroom. Also, a friend who moved here with a freshman daughter said she hates the school and hates how competitive all the students are.

Sales tax is 9% btw. And don't forget our high state income taxes.

And if you ever managed to buy a home (which you won't be able to do), you'll spend near $1m and pay roughly $1-$1.2k/mo in property taxes. For forever. That makes saving enough money to retire extremely hard.

btw I help manage apartments here; leave your email below if you have questions and I'm happy to answer anything directly.

That sounds cool, how did you get into managing apartments on the side?

I have a family (spouse and two kids), work in SF, and live in the peninsula. Quite honestly, I don't know if I can make it work in the long term. The cost of housing is astronomical - any family home in the peninsula is a million at least, and more likely in the $1.3-1.5 million range. Things are cheaper in the east bay, but I still have to go to the near-end of the BART lines to find a townhome in the $800k range. If I go out there, I probably can't ever take a job in the peninsula because the commute will be too hellish.

Even with a developer salary I'm not able to save anything. Housing + childcare/preschool eats everything up. In a few years when the kids are in public k it's possible that I'll have some financial leeway again.

Spending few years here is worth it because this was a career change and I'm able to learn a ton in the bay area. But unless my salary increases dramatically in a few years, I'll likely move to another area.

For you, I'd wait until you have a few offers in hand, then calculate out how much it would cost for you to live here.

I also have an infant daughter, and don't even imagine moving to SV. Other comments have talked enough about the finances, but the main factor for me would be the work-life balance.

From what I hear in online communities, SV sounds extremely anti-family. Companies that can hire new grads that will conveniently work overtime for pizza and beer will not really value a 9-5 family man like yourself. Add to that the stress and time-sink of long commutes, and that's all time that you could be spending with your young family.

It depends on the company. Mine is very family friendly. Don't believe everything you read online (including me, haha) - remember that people who are unhappy with their situation is more likely to post stuff online than people who are content.

That said, commute is a killer.

I've been in interviews were afterwards the group consensus was to actively not hire the newly engaged woman because people were nervous she'd get pregnant and then take maternity leave. Blatantly illegal, but nobody wrote it down, just said it out loud. She was well qualified and smart, but didn't get an offer. "Culture fit."

I interviewed with Facebook a few years ago. Even before going I had already done the math and decided that based on everything I knew about their compensation, there was no way I could move my family out there without a severe reduction in quality of life.

No matter how I sliced it, I was looking at least a few of the following:

   * Quadrupling our mortgage
   * Picking up a 30-60 minute commute
   * Sending my kids to either expensive private schools or terrible public ones

In the end, we ended up moving from the Midwest to Charleston, SC. It's obviously not SV, but it has a pretty vibrant tech scene. But more importantly, it's just a great place to raise a family. Reasonable cost of living, excellent career opportunities, and the recreational opportunities are endless.

Good luck, pal! I hope you make the right choice.

This subject could be easier to address than you might imagine. Moving away from your wife's family is a big sacrifice for her. Is there any advantage to this move besides money?

I totally agree with ytNumbers, family and support systems make a huge difference in quality of life. If your wife needs to run out to do an errand without your daughter, she can call family today. That won't be available in the Bay Area, and you'll wind up paying someone (not to mention finding said someone).

Also, you should look into Cost of Living calculators. They will take into account your new salary, cost of living (rent, food, gas, etc.) compared to your current salary. http://www.bestplaces.net/cost-of-living/

Smaller living space and more traffic are two downsides to the Bay Area. The weather is probably nicer, though, so any outdoor living space can be more utilized.

Personally, I have allergies. That would also be a consideration when moving. Can you take a few weeks trip out with everyone to see if there are any problems (or if existing problems go away)?

I would interview at Facebook as well. You can live across the bridge in the East Bay where it is cheaper and some have good schools. But with such a big population boom and concerned parents, schools in general will get better even in bad areas since everything is gentrifying. Interview at Google as well but if you do you should try to live in Mountain View since that commute really sucks.

And since your daughter is young you can afford to spend a few years finding the right place. Like I said, commuting sucks. If you pick an SF startup but you are in San Jose, expect a 1hr minimum train ride each way that will be very crowded. Traffic is also bad. Some places have rent control which is nice.

Really think hard on startups you think will be acquired or IPO. You really need the lottery ticket of options to be able to fund a downpayment in the housing lottery. It's almost impossible to pick the right early stage startup.. YC is a good filter but also go find the ones with the super smart people. The type that succeed no matter what. Or find a startup with veteran or ex-industry types. This is where networking in crucial.

It will be a shock. Then again the Bay area is beautiful with great things to do but my guess is you'll be working all the time!!! :)

You should be able to make $120k+ as a senior engineer in any of the top 5-10 markets. For example, look at Chicago if you'd like to stay near where you currently live and still have a reasonable cost of living.

There's no way I would stay in SF if I had children. Maybe south bay, but even then you're still looking at spending $4k / month on a 3 bedroom house.

If savings is your goal I wouldn't do it...

Just the difference in your housing costs (about 30k after taxes) wipe out your salary increase. On top of that it sounds like you'd be losing a 2nd income as well by moving so it looks like a net loss. On top of that other things in the area are going to be some what more costly.

Single income with a kid in the Bay is not going to be luxurious, you'll want to prep for some cuts in lifestyle if you were used to nice things. That 150k gets decimated by taxes real quick, + the 4k for a 2 bedroom which will have to be further away from most of the "sexier" spots where it will cost a lot more, hence more commuting.

E.g. you're taking home 90k after taxes, minus 50k for housing, that leaves 40k for you + wife + kid. Yes, you're not going to be starving, but you won't be living large either.

Can you consider a remote gig with a SV company? You would stay in Ohio, get a big bump to your current income stream, the wife and kids would not have to move anywhere etc. You'll just have to fly into to the Bay once in a while to spend time with the team, otherwise you'll be fine.

I would love a remote gig, assuming it was as an FTE with benefits (healthcare being important for family and all). My wife's company cannot afford to provide any benefits whatsoever.

It just seems like recently, the move is toward in-office employment with little to no work from home. I've talked to a handful of companies I'd love to work with, but I'd be willing to bet that they would all balk at remote employment.

What does your wife do for the non profit? Is it something transferable to the corporate world where the pay would be a lot better? Or is one of your goals for her to be a stay at home mom?

She manages an after school drop-in center in a rural area, part time. I want her to be happy, working or not; I think at the moment she likes staying at home with our daughter, at least for now. I'm not sure how transferable it is. This sort of thing tends to pay absolute bottom dollar unless you have a Masters in Social Work or Masters in Education which she does not.

Moving to SF/SV sounds fun, until you look at the quality of life. If you're hellbent on going this route, IMO you should possibly consider the NYC route and live in NJ. Your prices will be high as well, but the quality of life is much better. You can easily commute into NYC via train and then get back to NJ and have some ability to have a "normal life" without being in the city.

That said, there are other options. Look at WeWorkRemotely.com and RemoteOk.io for remote jobs. Get a good job, work remotely and have a good quality of life.

I almost went down the SF/SV route many times. Each time I ran the pros/cons and SF/SV has the worse return on life value for a family, IMO than almost anywhere. I've worked remotely for nearly 9 years and love this life. No commuting. Just my .02.

It's definitely possible to live a middle-class lifestyle with a $150k/year salary in SV, although you'll likely have to give up some comforts you may be used to (and also remember taxes are much higher in CA). Would your wife consider working once you move? $180-200k of household income is much more livable.

The biggest thing you might want to consider that you may not be thinking about is the lifestyle difference. The weather is mild year-long here, which means not having to deal with Ohio winters. If you like outdoorsey stuff, hiking/camping/etc are huge here, and it's a day's drive to ski resorts. You'll need to own a car here, but depending on where you live you may be able to take public transport to work, and towns are very biking-accessible.

My wife doesn't have much in the way of skills, and I fully acknowledge that childcare would consume most / all of her income if she was working (that was in my post originally but I had to cut it down to get under the 2K character limit).

The weather does sound really nice, and we own our two Priuses outright. It's sounding really unaffordable though.

SV / SF is no place for a family. Most of it is high crime and quite seedy. You'll pay significantly more for housing. Only the 80% of SF which is rent controlled is affordable (as an outsider, you'll never get this). At market rate, For 6K/month you might be able to rent a tiny 2 bedroom apartment with no parking. You'll never be able to save up for a condo and you can forget about a house. Most of us, are trying to get out of SV/SF. I wouldn't recommend you come here unless you'r facing homelessness or absolute destitute.

If you do come, I recommend, you ask for 170K minimum. Even then, you should make plans to leave within a few years.

SV is not high crime.

lol what. > Most of it is high crime and quite seedy.

?! ?!

I have been living in SV for many years. There is very little crime, not sure what you are talking about. Even areas that were historically high crime (EPA and Oakland) are rapidly gentrifying that there will be no crime in the next 5 years.

Not SV, but SF is quite high in crime.

As you can see, everyone is telling you not to move here under these circumstances. I'm a long timer here and I can confirm, $150K is great for a single person who's looking to rent and eventually share a place with a roommate. You'd be able to enjoy what the Bay Area has to offer.

Under your circumstances, it's a No-Go for sure. Plus you'll end up dealing with all the rudeness and competitiveness in Bay Area. That alone should keep you away from the Bay. Then traffic, prices, etc. Long timers are actually looking to get out of the Bay, snapping larger homes and a better quality of life somewhere else.

I'm fuzzy on why your wife would become a stay-at-home mom when your cost of living would at least double. Not like there aren't plenty of nonprofits that underpay in the bay (every little bit helps). If you can't keep your wife happy without her not working, don't do the move, period.

There are families of 6 that live in illegal 1-car garage units on the peninsula who pay >$1k a month for the privilege. If you think that's crazy (I do) then you have to come up with less-crazy alternatives.

If you want to try hacking it in the bay, recommend you go for an extreme commute from a place like Antioch or Manteca. You can get otherwise-sane deals on housing if you're willing to sacrifice an extra hour's drive each way. Your little ones can have a yard and their own rooms while you slog it out on some of America's most miserable interstates.

Also kinda crazy, but totally worth considering, move to Las Vegas and commute via air. Cheap one hour flight each way, low cost of living.

As you "season" in the bay, you may be offered more and more money as you take on new positions. Eventually even buying a $1+ million house that checks all the usual boxes will become possible. It takes years for this to happen, but you may find as your career grows, uprooting the family every year to move 10 minutes closer to work can make things better.

The additional money would not buy you an equivalent quality of life. It's that simple

In addition to the increase in money not being enough to buy you an equivalent quality of life you will be living in a completely different culture. This will wear on not only you but your wife. You really don't want to be turning your life upside down and ditching your connections/support network at this point in your life.

SV, NYC, and similar are places where you go to make money. They are not places you go to settle down.

Since TripleByte also has companies in NYC, I'll provide a datapoint if you are considering NYC instead of the bay area. Our (my spouse and mine) goals around financial independence are similar to yours. We left the NYC area.

Before I say anything else, one of the major benefits of both NYC and the Bay Area is that you have a lot of opportunites to climb the career ladder. If that's what you want, you'll have a lot of opportunity to increase your salary beyond the range you've stated.

For that salary range I wouldn't recommend the greater NYC area unless there is a significant bonus and you know you'll get it. Housing becomes cheaper once you get away from NYC. But home prices are still high and property taxes are shocking in New Jersey, varying widely from town to town. At one point I was evaluating NYC/NJ vs the Bay Area, and concluded the property taxes and various fees (e.g. HOA) made NJ almost as unappealing as the Bay Area. The housing stock isn't great either.

Everybody says NJ has decent public transit to NYC. That's only if you can afford a home near a NJ Transit or PATH stop and your office is near a train station on the same line. Otherwise you might be driving to an NJ Transit station (and pay $100/month+ for parking), NJ Transit to Path Train/NYC MTA, then walk. Plus, all those are very crowded at peak times. Somebody I worked with had car->bus->train->train to get to work.

In NYC it's easy to get trapped in cycle of climbing the job ladder (maybe taking jobs you hate) just so you can feel like you can accumulate savings and an emergency fund. I was amazed by how many tech people I met who worked in banking who hated their jobs and worked way more than they wanted to because of the pay and a desire to stay in the NYC area.

So did you end up leaving the NYC area? Where did you go, roughly speaking.

I moved South, somewhere in the Carolinas/Georgia area.

Where I am now there are far fewer tech jobs than NYC, and a lot of the jobs are in companies that aren't as fancy sounding as what you'd see in NYC. I moved to a job with a bit of travel, so I didn't take too much of a pay cut. Some days I wonder if I made the right choice, but I don't worry about my savings getting destroyed by rent/mortgage+taxes during a job loss.

I am someone who lives with a wife and a kid in the Bay Area. I lived in single income for a year (was making around 150K as well). I had a small single family home in East Bay, which I bought at around 600K. Had a tough commute to the peninsula. It is doable, if you are ready to live in East Bay - Fremont, Union City, Dublin, Livermore etc. A job in the City proper is actually better as you can take the BART.

No one mentions the upside of living in the Bay Area: 1. My pay doubled as the stock market reached new highs in 3 years 2. My wife got a job in the 120K range 3. We sold our home and made 200K profit from it

In 3 years, we secured an extremely comfortable life, with money in the bank, great experience, in a booming job market, a large house and with all the amenities of living in the Bay Area.

If I am in your position, I would think where I would be in 3-5 years time.

I wouldn't do it if I were you. Working at these companies is nowhere near as cool as it is marketed to sound. They're just jobs. Your cost of living will probably go up 3-4x and your salary won't even double.

Only do it if your wife will work and you guys can be dual income. Also, realize a lot of apartments will actively discriminate against renting to couples with kids, mainly because the buildings here are built terribly with just wood frames, so if you get downstairs neighbors they will complain about your kids running around. They won't tell you they're not renting to you because of your kids, you just won't get selected to rent any units.

One important thing: just because you work in SF (or Oakland) it doesn't mean you need to live there. Check out all the cities with BART access. I've known some developers to live as far away as Concord and even Livermore for the cost of living. Of course, the catch is that the commute is guaranteed to be terrible. But really unless you live and work in the same city (which is a luxury here), that's the case for everyone here.

Did this calculation a few years back, and living in the Bay Area on one salary (possibly plus a non-engineer salary) looked financially impossible. I'd definitely recommend taking a trip out there and looking carefully at what your life would be like there. Among other things, note that living in a house there is impossible until/unless you win the IPO lottery.

Also: removing wife and kids from extended family and work is a sure way to the family troubles.

If you want a divorce, this is a great idea.

or....

You could consider living somewhere like Berkeley, which is a short (and direct) 20 minute BART ride into S.F. (if you don't have a remote or local job).

I'd push hard to get your salary up to ~$165k/year as a senior-level (totally doable).

After taxes and whatever you throw down for partial Health Care payments through your job, you can target around $9k/month in your pocket.

1) About 1/3 of your income can go to housing. You can rent a small home in Berkeley (very nice areas) for $3k to $3.5k/month [1][2] The market is just now starting to open back up, so it'll only get better.

2) About 1/3 of your income can go to bill's, groceries, car payments, BART tickets, etc... (~2.5k to 3k)

3) Last 1/3 of your income (~3k) can go directly into your savings account.

It's doable, in very nice areas, with a high quality of life.

That said...

...it all depends on what your personal definition of "high quality of life" is.

Top rated public schools (9/10 & 10/10 rated), great weather year around, hiking, biking, sailing, surfing, beaches, skiing, fishing, local farmers markets (supplied by actual local farms from the central valley), amazing & unique local Grocery markets [3], stellar independent eateries [4], etc... all out your back door, most of it walkable [5], most of it bike friendly [6], and/or very close by.

Big, spacious, modern house with lot's of acreage. Nope.

[1] https://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/eby/hhh?nh=49&min_price=...

[2] https://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/sub/d/beautiful-and-serene-...

[3] https://www.yelp.com/biz/monterey-market-berkeley

[4] https://www.yelp.com/biz/gourmet-ghetto-berkeley

[5] https://www.cityofberkeley.info/bicyclingandwalkingguides/

[6] http://www.berkeleyside.com/2017/07/11/berkeley-gets-first-b...

To be clear, I'm completely fine with a commute. I thought that was obvious when I said suburbs. Hell, my current commute is ~35 minutes. How is it that Berkeley is apparently so cheap while being that close?