Ask HN: Where does one find true entry level development jobs? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Where does one find true entry level development jobs?

35 pointsmcgrath_sh44 comments

I have several languages that I have either used infrequently in personal projects or have leared in classes over a couple of semesters. I want to find an entry level or junior level development job, but all of the ones I run across seem to want significantly more experience than I have. I am particularly interested in COBOL, but every "junior" job there wants 5+ years of experience. I am a quick learner when I get into the language on a day to day basis, but I have rarely used a single language for longer than 6 months at a time on an entry level basis.

Can anyone recommend any particular job boards or tips for filtering for true entry level jobs? Thanks!

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> every "junior" job there wants 5+ years of experience.

That sentence is the important clue you need. If you are still a junior programmer after 5+ years experience, there is probably something wrong. You should mostly ignore the job requirements in terms of the years of experience they want.

There are even plenty of inside jokes around this. Jobs asking for 10 years javascript experience a couple of years after javascript was released!

Either they are looking for a senior programmer and are hoping to pay junior programmer rates (possible) or they are just putting their list of ideal requirements (more likely).

Sometimes the requirements aren't even written by IT staff, HR writes the requirements, and HR doesn't have a clue about IT.

Unfortunately, this means that it's very difficult to filter for "true" entry level jobs.

Applying to jobs is mostly a numbers game. Unless the job makes it clear that you need to be a senior developer, or a team lead, then just apply. Before traveling to an interview, see if you can set up an initial phone interview. If the interviewer doesn't do a great job of screening you, ask questions yourself to try to understand your responsibilities better. Will you be working under a senior programmer? That's a good sign that they aren't looking for someone who can work 100% independently and that they are willing to mentor you.

I suspect they are encouraging people to lie on their applications, which gives companies a defense to any sort of fired for cause lawsuit.

Really? That sounds a little paranoid. I always just tell the truth on the interview and application. "You asked for 5+ years experience, but I only have 6 months. I'm willing to learn if you are willing to train me".

How is that paranoid? You think there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for asking for more experience with a technology than is physically possible?

Yes, incompetence. I bet that such a defense would have trouble in court considering that your resume and interview would ideally cover the true amount of years of experience.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity"

"never say never"

Bieber's Razor?

It's not malice, it's business and legal acumen.

If that's what the legal department recommended to me as a business owner to add in protections for being able to fire employees, I would fire the legal department.

How many applicants will be inspired to lie because of my absurd requirement on the job spec? Of those applicants, how many will I hire? Do I only hire applicants who have lied in order to be protected so I can later fire them? I wouldn't hire someone who lied on their application in the first place!

I've never had a legal department recommend something so silly as this, and I challenge you to find one that does. If you want certain protections for the company in an employment agreement, you put them in a contract.

They're either looking for a purple squirrel (like trying to hire the original developer of the technology), trying to move someone internally into a position that requires them to also seek outside candidates (by making the requirements impossible to fulfill), or dev told HR they needed someone with "X" experience for a senior role, and HR translated that to "10 years experience with X" (X having been out for 2 years).

There are three of the standard answers that come up any time this topic does.

I would say the next step here is to look at who actually gets hired, but I have no way of accessing that.

If we're going for impossible, then it sounds more like the old H1-B 'we couldn't find any qualified applicants' trick.

That's probably not the answer you want, but do not hesitate to apply to jobs that ask for 0-5 years of experience, it's very often a nice to have and not a requirement. Worst case scenario is, they don't contact you (which will not happen either if you don't contact them ;) )

Your choice of COBOL is both strange (it's an old language that's not used for any new stuff) and potentially playing against you. Company looking for COBOL devs are often banks or big companies having huge critical systems that they're afraid to update to a more recent language. Thus, they may be looking for someone with some experience, considering how critical those softwares are. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't apply, I may totally be wrong or you may find something anyway!

The guy probably wants those fat stacks that come with COBOL, but I agree, there are not gonna be any entry level COBOL positions.

Also, from the stories I've seen, the big issue with old systems that still have COBOL parts etc isn't so much the COBOL itself as all the domain-specific, proprietary, custom developed integration solutions that have to be reverse-engineered for someone to replace them.

A lot of them are also looking for people to train, simply because they can see how few years they have left before the last guy that knows the code retires.

My experience is probably not typical, but I had an EE degree and more of a self taught programming background. When I graduated in 2009 the job market was pretty bad but took a job doing support for a telecom company. Within a few months I found a lot of what they were doing could be automated so I started writing scripts. Very quickly this became my full time job. I later leveraged that to get a more "normal" software dev position at another company, although sometimes I miss that job because I don't think I have ever written software since then that felt as directly impactful (saving many hours and $) lol. Also, COBOL is a very unusual language to be perusing in this day in age, but you might find something in sustaining type roles at big corps and government. I would think they would actually be quite eager to find new hires that were actually interested in maintaining old COBOL but I don't know.

The public sector. I got my first dev job at the local state university. They pay less than the private sector, thus making it harder for them to find solid talent. Put in a few years, and then jump ship once you've accumulated the requisite experience to no-longer be entry-level.

Second this. Universities are a great place to find junior dev work as competition is relatively low compared with higher paying industries.

I started off at an extremely low salary in my first job at a UC and doubled my salary in two years (though I still work in higher-ed and like it).

Apply for jobs that it doesn't seem you qualify for. True entry level jobs in development know that the people that are coming straight out of school are going to require training/mentoring (hence the lower pay).

There are jobs out there that are looking for mid to senior level developers, but don't want to pay their prices, so they post entry/junior level jobs with mid/senior requirements. Screw those jobs.

Further, still, you have some jobs that are trying to do the aforementioned with the intent that no one applies, and they can use the evidence to justify an H1-B visa.

Even further, still, you have those jobs that are posted by recruiters that are at least two levels removed from any person with expertise in the field, so they don't know what the hell they're doing.

Just a curiosity question: why COBOL? Since it's not mainstream anymore, this makes the process of finding a job way more complicated. As a person who has never programmed in it I'm simply curious what makes it worth all the extra trouble?

I am open to any language I have a base in, but to explain my COBOL desires... I took two semesters of it in grad school. I just really enjoyed the language. It made a lot of sense to me, was straightforward in its output, and was structured in a manner that I found worked with my thought process. There are jobs in my area for COBOL, but even the entry level ones seem like they want 5 years of experience every z/OS feature.

Out of curiosity what Uni is currently teaching COBOL?

RMU in Pittsburgh has a very close working relationship with IBM. They also offer z/OS and DB2 courses.

If I had a job that required COBOL, I'd be interested in hearing from anyone with a genuine interest in it, regardless of experience level. Apply!

A lot of military programs are written in COBOL and actively maintained to this day. The salary of these positions is significantly higher. Its a niche job.

This is also true of banks and other old, large companies with well established infrastructure.

But, I didn't think to look to the military or federal government. Thanks!

Medical field too, I've seen numerous COBOL jobs out here.

People who write job ads often times don't know much about the jobs, hence the keyword soup and outlandish timelines. You will do well to reach to hiring managers directly, making sure to explain why. I scan those emails for about 15 seconds each, most get discarded because the applicant couldn't be bothered to explain what attracted them to our company and how they are going to contribute. The latter part is most important, and can easily land you an interview.

So if, for example, you were hiring for a developer in Java and I sent an email essentially saying: "I did this language in school. I haven't done much of it in my current internship, but here is one of my last projects. I liked the language due to X, Y, Z reasons and am interested in the job for ABC. I apply myself when learning, and quickly pick things up. I can put you in touch with the professor who taught me the language to confirm that."

I may have a chance at an interview even if my credentials are well/mostly short of the posted job? I interview rather well when I do get a chance. I just don't want to spend time banging my head against the wrong wall.

We don't hire for language skills, so this will do nothing to persuade me. I am a lot more interested in someone who can own a problem and drive it to conclusion. Coding is part of it, obviously, but only one of many.

Most jobs will list a bunch of bullet points as requirements.

If you can check off more than half, consider yourself well qualified.

Even things like "never programmed in swift, but have read some code examples, and understands the basic principles" can be enough check off "swift programming experience", especially if you already have mobile development experience from school or personal projects.

I have no formal academic credential in CS. I got my first job as a programmer off of Craigslist, and I recommend taking a look to everyone who is having trouble finding an entry level position. People/companies advertising there typically don't care too much about pedigree (this should not surprise, given the branding of Craigslist), and also usually aren't looking for rocket scientists.

I agree with the advice others have given re: years of experience: it's rarely a hard requirement.

Take a look at this list of software jobs for NYC[1]. I see three or four entry level positions just on the first page.

[1] https://newyork.craigslist.org/search/sof

I'll add one more thing. Very few of the jobs on Craigslist are "sexy." Ignore the sexy jobs. Once you get your foot in the door, your options expand enormously. The adage "no one cares about your grades after your first job" holds fairly well, especially in this industry. I got that first Craigslist job in the summer of 2013, and was only there for five months (it was a horrible, toxic work environment). I now make more than 5x what I made at that first job. Whatever first job you take doesn't have to define the rest of your career.

I second this. Get some practical experience before trying for the "sexy" job.

Not sure when the next one will be, but AFS http://www.afsvision.com/Careers/Career-Opportunities sporadically holds a Cobol training academy, where they pay individuals to learn Cobol for a few weeks, and generally hire a majority of them.

The exton, PA location is also close to Lancaster PA, so rural living is an option. I only use webservices with that group, so our corporate recruiter would probably have a better idea of what's available.

In 2008, I went to SCALE, which is a Southern Californian Linux/Open Software expo. I met someone from a large company that pays finding fees to people that bring in new talent; he was there hoping to make a couple bucks.

From that, I've got two suggestions. First, go to expos, meet-ups, etc. They sometimes have mini job fairs, or at least people that know about some open positions. Second, find someone that will advocate for you to be hired (greed and friendship are both good motives for that).

I was able to patch together around 2 years of paid development experience by the time I graduated college from various internships. I think it helped a lot in getting my first "real" position. If you're still in school I strongly recommend taking this route as entry level positions themselves are pretty hard to find.

In my, outside of the valley experience, getting jobs is usually about talking to someone you know who know some one who knows someone. The sites where you spam your resume unannounced into a hiring inbox are not generally a high percent choice.

Do you have any local connections? The local development shops usually know a guy who knows a guy who has a start up who is hiring a few people. Typically, if you can find your way into a few local conferences, maker spaces, or gatherings generally there are a few companies who are hiring someone.

In a university setting, you are looking for professors who have some money to throw around of a one off project or know someone else who does. Think internships here. Typically colleges have a jobs/employment office specifically designed to find you jobs/coops/internships they are an excellent resource.

Universities usually have plenty of student developer jobs, if you know how / when to look.

Is there a college near you? They often have career fairs where employers are looking to hire entry-level employees. It may take some digging to find these fairs, because they often aren't advertised off-campus.

networking events. (meetups & hackathons)

Usually around colleges and in large cities.

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