DJI adds an offline mode to its drones for clients with ‘sensitive operations’ | Hacker News Reader

DJI adds an offline mode to its drones for clients with ‘sensitive operations’

techcrunch.com

114 pointsjanober73 comments

I wonder if they have an "Application Process" for who is allowed to go offline. Their biggest problem has been drones straying into places they shouldn't. Airport locations can be stored offline but emergency FAA drone "blackouts" are relayed online. What happens when someone uses this to document a protest in DJI's native China. Hmm?

Edit: To make it clear, I've always had a love-hate relationship with this form of DRM.

Protests in china are regulated by the government similar to other protests in USA where you usually notify local governments about the land you are on and have to ask for approval in some manner. If protests are approved, then they can be held which is what happens in China.

Thus documenting a protest in China that is legal would not be censored on Chinese media, however documenting an illegal protest and then broadcasting it on Chinese media is pretty risky as the government can crackdown on it much easier.

Moreover, Chinese government can censor footage about protests if it goes against their wishes so in the end it doesn't really matter.

Does the Chinese government often approve such protests? What would they allow their citizens to protest?

I don't think there's really approval for protests, but "The majority of protests in China concern local grievances, such as the corruption of county- or township-level government or Communist Party officials, exploitation by employers, excessive taxation, and so on. Protests targeting specific, local grievances, and where citizens propose actionable remedies, are more likely to succeed than alternative forms of protests."

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protest_and_dissent_in_China

Those protests are cracked down on, im talking about these:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_China_anti-Japanese_demon...

These are usually broadcasted openly on the Chinese internet and allowed by the Chinese government. Like I'm of Chinese ethnicity and I occasionally see Chinese news, these are the only protests put on Chinese State news that you can see because it forwards Chinese govt. agenda.

EDIT: Note that a BBC News article about it says that "The BBC's Martin Patience in Beijing says the outbreak of protests was almost certainly sanctioned by the Chinese authorities, as they were well policed."

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-19312226

If there is police allowed around a protest in China, it usually is legal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_China_anti-Japanese_demon...

Chinese government often uses demonstrations that prove their point or to forward their political agenda

> similar to other protests in USA where you usually notify local governments about the land you are on and have to ask for approval in some manner. If protests are approved, then they can be held which is what happens in China

EDIT: Yeah, my apologies, you're probably not a bot, I'm being paranoid. That said, your argument might as well come from one if you're trying to suggest that the way China handles protests is approximately equivalent to the US.

PRIOR: You're a China bot. Anonymous, newish account, comment history is a mix of tech industry opinion (as cover) mixed with "America is just like China" soft-propaganda on topics like Tibet and public protest.

And China doesn't approve protest requests. But you know this.

That's a bit harsh. Do not attribute to malice what can be explained by naivety or stupidity.

I didn't downvote you because thats your opinion, other people downvoted u.

As well, I'm pretty sure I'm not a bot, maybe you can give me a recaptcha test to test me and I never said protests are treated the same in USA. Does the USA censor their protests on the media? Please answer me there as I put that on my post and learn to read. I'm angry because this is stupid.

Also I hate the Chinese Communist Party and don't want China under a communist one-party dictatorship. I have not said anything about Tibet, that was you. If I was a Chinese bot I would have just lost my job.

They also approve of protests requests that forward their political agenda:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_China_anti-Japanese_demon...

See above, this was broadcasted on the Chinese interwebs and on Chinese State news where I saw it, if it wasn't allowed, it would have been stopped and cracked down on.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-19312226

If there is police allowed around a protest in China, it usually is legal

Another edit: Dont pretend you know more about China than I do, i am prepared to protest the Chinese govt on Chinese streets and light myself on fire for Chinese democracy, until you can do the same you have no skin in the game.

In the US, protests can only be regulated as to time, place, and manner, not content.

In the PRC, I can only imagine content is the most heavily regulated aspect.

Apparently it's "offline" as in "not phoning home to the company's headquarters at will."

Not "offline" as in "radio silent during a flight."

well it would be kinda difficult to control a remote-controlled drone if it's completely radio silent.

DJIs can fly along a programmed path.

true, touche.

GPS signals are radio waves, but they are read-only.

Tell that to the truckers who accidentally cause panic in a metropolitan area when they forget to turn off the jammer they use for fudging hours and miles. Those signals are very weak by the time they get down here, and easy to override. It's just illegal.

I wonder what level of accuracy they could manage with dead reckoning?

if you're thinking about how to get a drone to determine its' place in space without radio make sure to consider celestial navigation.[0]

The SR-71 Blackbird used a navigation system that incorporated both methods (inertia and star-watching).[1]

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_navigation

[1]: https://timeandnavigation.si.edu/multimedia-asset/nortronics...

I remember we had a star tracking device come to us via some donation source for a prototype satellite build when I was in college. About as big as my fist, from memory.

Unfortunately, it was Russian and the only documentation accompanying it was one page, in Russian.

But there are certainly CotS parts that you can buy to provide a star-tracked location data source.

Unless there is no wind at all, pretty poor.

Even then, sensor drift is a huge problem.

Couldn't it use a camera pointed towards the ground and track objects on the ground to measure absolute movement in space? Like Parrot's drones do. Probably DJI drones as well, since they have ground-facing camera(s).

Sure, although it would then be misleading to describe it as "dead reckoning" when it's actually some kind of SLAM system.

With MEMS based gyros and accelerometers: not enough to maintain position.

With much larger and more expensive gyros/accelerometers dead reckoning is enough to navigate without external navigation systems for at least a few hours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inertial_navigation_system

Early ICBMs used inertial guidance systems. Some cruise missiles use terrain maps.

With enough funding it shouldn't be a problem to get gps level accuracy with modern technology.

Oh?

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2143499-ships-fooled-in...

Of course, for the drone, I meant.

Why aren't GPS signals signed?

* Actual information is derived from phase shift between signals, not their contents

* Signals are below noise level, you need to know their exact contents to be able to receive them

* Military modification is encrypted, and it can help against some sorts of spoofing.

* To spoof, you need to

- receive signals from at least 4 sats (e.g. using a 2d phased array you can get pretty good directional sensitivity without knowing the contents of the signal).

- retransmit the signals to the target, time-shifting each signal to achieve the required time+coordinate spoofing delta.

- jam the original signals with a known noise source you can subtract from your own received signal to avoid jamming yourself ;)

There used to be a separate encrypted channel for military use ("selective availability"). There's a replacement, secret system which is supposed to provide the same anti-spoofing for NATO military uses only.

The data rate of GPS is surprisingly low. Furthermore, you can spoof someone's position by relaying genuine signals provided you alter their relative time delay.

I don't know if the secret service is using a modified DJI or their own in-house design but they were testing a non-RF teathered drone:

https://www.dhs.gov/publication/dhsussspia-020-united-states...

For the price I don't know if DJI has any competition. The p3s is about 350 bucks and I don't think there is any drone at that price point that is competitive. Maybe the xiaomi drone, but they don't have US warranty. 3DR is out of drones. The other brands just don't work as well with the same range, gimbal etc. There is really no competition to the Mavic.

GoPro Karma competes quite favorably with the Mavic, especially since the Karma has the added benefit that you can remove the Hero5 Black and/or the gyroscopic stabilizer and use them on the ground.

didn't the karmas all get recalled?

yes. And have been back on the market for half a year or so.

oh wow ok

Not in the size department though. The Karma is leagues larger.

The Karma is controlled via wifi (like the parrot bebop) which limits the range and the image is a bit to distorted imho. It's a good machine but it's no match for the Mavic

I just upgraded from the P3S to the Mavic actually. While a good starter drone, the P3S is inferior to the other models in quite a few ways, so I'd recommend anyone interested in a drone to just save up a few more bucks and buy the Mavic or maybe a P4 Advanced. Biggest difference is that the Standard uses normal 2.4ghz wifi for remote -> phone -> drone communication, so it gets interfered with heavily and has a very reduced range because of that (comparatively, the Mavic can like miles while the Standard you'd be really pushing it at just a mile).

The Mavic is a ridiculously cool little device, so much better for traveling too.

Mavic? Why not Spark?

Spark is even smaller... for travelling, it's ideal. (If you have a standard sized suitcase, the Mavic will assume like half the space of it... Spark is MUCH smaller). And it's more affordable.

Spark trade-offs are reduced range, doesn't do 4K video, 2-axis gimbal, etc.

I'm not sure what suitcase you have, but a Mavic doesn't even take up half of a hand-luggage-sized bag. I have a 40L backpack I use as carry-on when flying. In that bag, I can fit the Mavic (inc extra batteries, cards, controller, iPad, etc), sleeping bag, air mattress, stove and cooking gear, clothes and food for days of hiking.

The Spark is significantly inferior to the Mavic, and since the arms don't fold up, isn't even any smaller than the Mavic. I have a Mavic Pro and there's zero chance I'd trade it for a Spark even if price was more of a concern.

Also: no 4K video (makes a significant difference in sharpness even when downsampled), 2-axis gimbal (that's the real killer) and significantly shorter flying time (16min vs. 26min, but that's really more like 10min considering you have to bring it home with enough lead time).

While I haven't owned any other drone to compare, I think the Mavic is quite incredible - the combination of compactness and ability is brilliant. Being able to take something in a small pack that can fly kilometres away and handle quite windy weather is really useful if you enjoy documenting your trips or just having an excuse to get out and about more.

It's not a drone-specific account, but I put up a few photos and videos here: https://www.instagram.com/isaacforman/

Question, are you using a lens filters on your Mavic's camera, or solely adjusting colors after the fact?

I bought PolarPro Vivid filters and have tried them once so far, but it was quite cloudy. Yet to try them with a lot of sun/glare.

Otherwise just flying raw and then fixing in LightRoom. By default, the raw shots come out very blasted and unlike what the eye sees.

Nice! You have some great shots on there.

Here's my account: https://www.instagram.com/dronechuk

Must be great having access to such photogenic territory. I like this kind of understated scenery!

https://www.instagram.com/p/BWqzeMqBziz/?taken-by=dronechuk

I bought my drone while in the US and first flew it in Utah, but not enough. Misunderstood the settings on one of the early flights and it drifted into a tree - that scared me off further flights until I got home!

yeah all the different settings can be a little overwhelming. I'm constantly in awe I'm able to take photos of stuff that basically ten years ago+ you needed a damn helicopter for.

"A few more bucks" is quite an understatement. P3S is around 500€ here. Mavic is 1100€ ;)

Well, you're correct for sure. Considering they're all discretionary "toys" for most of us (unless you're a pro, in which case you'll probably be spending a lot more for an Inspire or something), an extra $500 or so isn't too bad.

The Mavic is night and day compared to the P3S. Don't get me wrong, my Standard got me some great shots and was a good intro, but the Mavic will be my goto for a while now. Easy to take on hikes/trips, cheaper batteries, better controller.

"An Aug. 2 memo cites 'increased awareness of cyber vulnerabilities' with drones from China’s market-leading DJI."

Maybe I'm missing something here, but wouldn't the best "offline mode" be to never connect a sensitive phone/tablet to any internet-facing network?

Maybe... There are a lot of non-China + reasonable comments there, but anything related to China is too close to the party line and framed in such a way as to suggest they know how to frame propaganda well. I find it hard to believe that China (like Russia) isn't conducting a "spread propaganda through comments" campaign and has not identified HN as a key opinionmaker in the tech industry.

You'd be surprised how incredibly pervasive such views are with the Chinese and also with Chinese emigrants. Being exposed to state media for two decades will do funny stuff to your head it is not that you then move to the West and suddenly you see clearly. I know a few people who went this route and we can talk about many things but some bits are remarkably resilient in the face of having access to more facts.

I'm sure there are people that fit your description but unless you have proof I don't think you should make such accusations.

These campaigns do exist, so the question is "Where are the bots?" Look to the people with opinions and phrasing that parallel the government, like happened with Trump/Russia/Wikileaks coordination. They also pepper the account with many unrelated comments. They're usually impossible to verify as a person. And they don't make arguments, they make deflections. Aim of propaganda today is to muddy the conversation, cast doubt, prevent consensus. So look for those patterns.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14753932

Fair enough, that is the trouble with witch hunts...

Out of curiosity, I scrolled through a dozen pages or so of this posters comment history and your assessment of him seems highly unsupported. He's self-described as a person of Chinese descent living in the west since birth (Canada I believe) and is a developer who comments on developer type discussions.

In other words, a typical HN contributor. You should be aware that governments, even ones you disagree with, are composed of actual people, and that it's quite possible for people to have a consistent worldview that closely tracks a government's perceived worldview without actually being agents of that government.

Yeah, you might be right. I re-read all his comments. Consistent enough. Probably not a bot, just a false equivalency expert. I am being overly paranoid.

Please don't bring accusations of shillage or astroturfing without evidence. It always weakens the discussion terribly.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15017451 and marked it off-topic.

Thank you Scott.

Drones seem like they need to be more regulated maybe by the FAA.

I am mostly in favor of the current status quo for drones but I would be interested in hearing your arguments in favor of more regulation.

Hobbyists have had FPV in RC planes and helis for 10+ years, but it's easy now so everyone is doing it. You don't need to know how to solder, program transmitters, cobble together TX/RX equipment, have a ham license, etc etc etc. There wasn't a problem before, because the types of people who would cause problems and do stupid stuff didn't generally have the patience / skills to get it working to the point that they could actually do damage with it. It's cool that this is a more accessible hobby now, but kids being kids without the adult supervision that would have come with affording, designing, acquiring, assembling, and flying + operating such a device is gone with cheap drones + the internet.

I think that regulating it will be bad for hobbyists. Drones are already banned in national parks and some city / county parks (shame since there's an entire category of "park flyers" and few AMA RC flying fields in the Bay Area). I've given up on RC flight for now, but drone racing in warehouses and parks seems insanely fun.

In the UK drones are lightly regulated by our equivalent of the FAA, you can freely fly a drone so long as its below 400ft, 50ft or more away from other people, and you have visual contact with it. For anything outside of that you're considered to be a private pilot, and have to be licensed accordingly.

It was my understanding that the FAA already tried that, and thanks to the efforts by a certain drone operator and the AMA, the registration process and rules basically reverted back to what they were for all RC aircraft, provided your aircraft was under some weight limit (I think it was 50 lbs):

http://amablog.modelaircraft.org/amagov/2017/05/19/faa-regis...

You still have to register if you are flying your drone for commercial use, and you still have to follow a variety of other rules and regs worked out (quite a long time ago) with the AMA - but provided you do all that (and they aren't onerous from what I recall), you can basically fly almost anywhere you want.

I should note, though, that it is probably prudent to get and fly under an AMA membership. It's fairly cheap insurance, ultimately.

All that said, unless I am wrong - this could all change after Labor Day:

http://www.modelaircraft.org/aboutama/gov.aspx

Does anyone think that the NSA doesn't already have surveillance software embedded in DJI firmware?

Do they even need to? If we assume the network is compromised and that the third party servers are compromised or can be with a warrant why bother owning the drones?

DJI is a Chinese company.

Exactly my point. The NSA is only allowed to work overseas.

You think the NSA can convince a mainland Chinese company to install backdoors for Americans? Seriously dubious…

No, but they might be able to convince the guy that flashes the firmware. That would be cheaper anyway.

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