I cringe every time I see a tech woman's award. "Applaud X for her achievement in creating Y, that wasn't good enough for the main award but it's the best women can do".
Society is sick, somehow (almost) everybody fell asleep at the wheel and forgot that equal opportunity trumps equal outcome. It drives people from all backgrounds to work harder and means we don't end up presenting "okay" as the best that's out there. We don't artificially add 10% to men's Olympic times, why should be being doing the equivalent in employment? Can't we just hire the best person for the job, not for quotas?
And lastly, where are the people complaining about unfair treatment of Asians in the US, or women only companies? These shouts of discrimination are extremely polarized.
The predominant view (with enough dominance to get someone fired from Google for challenging it) is that there are no differences between the sexes that can be considered legitimate at all (cultural, in preferences, evolutionary tendencies, etc.), and thus any non-equal outcome much inevitably be the result of suppression.
I don't doubt oppression against women existed and exists (in various forms).
I doubt:
a) that it is an one way street (women have immense power over their children, including male children, and a particular role later in sexual selection, which is hardly a male-dominated "sport") that are not questioned at all in modern societies (e.g. not in the era of arranged marriages). It's assumed that "patriarchy" is bad, but not that "matriarchy" can be bad as well.
b) that there are no legitimate, at least in the context of evolution and culture, differences in preferences between sexes that are not attributable to downright oppression or some "anti-woman" notion.
Women are men, in essence, that just happen to lack penises, and men are women, in essence, that just happen to lack vaginas. Differences in development, body types, capabilities, evolutionary roles, hormonal content, etc., are not to be considered beyond this a priori fact.
The idea that women might be worse at programming for biological reasons is an entirely post-hoc hypothesis deriving from the current gender distribution in the field. As lots of other STEM fields have seen a sharp increase in the number of women over the past decades, while computer science and software engineering have not, the grounds for thinking that biological differences between men and women are relevant are extremely shaky, and really are nothing more than pseudoscientific rationalizations of the status quo.
Please lets not have any more of this absurd straw man argument that men and women must be equally good at programming because men and women are exactly the same. No-one thinks this.
Now, I'm not sure if that's just society having pushed me in that direction, or if I, as a human, just don't enjoy those. If it's the former, maybe it needs some work. If it's the latter, does 'equal outcome' really work?
I don't see as big a push to equal out the playing fields in things such as janitorial work. This may be due to the fact that it's not as cognitive, which I understand. I think we need more women in tech to expand our (currently male) viewpoint. But I'm not sure that aggressively targetting people who may not be as interested, from either gender, is the way to do it.
If you have no reason to think that this is true, what is the point of speculating about it?
Sure, but you seem to be implying another straw man that women have to be functionally worse at some task for a difference in outcome to be genetic. People talk much more often about a difference in interest, which could very much be partially genetic.
This just doesn't make any sense. Just because a hypothesis hasn't been proven doesn't mean that it isn't the case. People don't argue that, "Men and women are different in some respects therefor we presume that they won't have the same performance in this particular field." They argue that, "There is a marked difference in outcome in this particular field and that difference may have something to due with the differences between men and women."
You are trying to argue (it seems) that the difference in outcome in tech is due entirely or primarily to social factors. If that's the case, the burden of proof is on you to show that alternative hypotheses don't apply. If it's not the case, then we need to evaluate how we pursue quotas and other diversity initiatives.
For myself, I've seen arguments that a pretty convincing case (from statistics and known biological factors) for the "interest" hypothesis. It certainly applies to the men and women in my personal life. (I've never worked in the Valley.) It could, I suppose still be largely wrong, but that's not a-priori obvious.
That is not an argument. It's speculation.
>You are trying to argue (it seems) that the difference in outcome in tech is due entirely or primarily to social factors. If that's the case, the burden of proof is on you to show that alternative hypotheses don't apply
The burden of proof is on anyone who claims to know why there are fewer women than men in tech. It doesn't apply exclusively to people with one particular opinion on the matter, as you seem to think it does.
If you look at other fields, radical shifts in gender balance have occurred quite frequently over the past few decades. And women keep telling us about sexism in tech and how it dissuades them from participating in it. And there are far more women in equally geeky fields like, say, mathematics. So it's not really that hard to figure out what's going on.
>For myself, I've seen arguments that a pretty convincing case (from statistics and known biological factors) for the "interest" hypothesis
Then please reveal these arguments so that they can be evaluated.
So is the stance that there are fewer women primarily because of social factors. Regardless, when attempting to establish a statistical effect, you have to rule out alternative explanations, even those based on speculation.
"The burden of proof is on anyone who claims to know why there are fewer women than men in tech. It doesn't apply exclusively to people with one particular opinion on the matter, as you seem to think it does."
No, I do not think it does. The burden of proof is on anyone who advocates for one reason over another. I haven't actually argued for stance over another, only corrected your attempts to frame the debate a certain way.
"Then please reveal these arguments so that they can be evaluated."
The SSC post shared multiple times in this thread is one example and I don't see any attempts to rebut this on your part.
"If you look at other fields, radical shifts in gender balance have occurred quite frequently over the past few decades. And women keep telling us about sexism in tech and how it dissuades them from participating in it. And there are far more women in equally geeky fields like, say, mathematics. So it's not really that hard to figure out what's going on."
Sure 'women keep telling us about sexism in tech'. I've read some of those anecdotes. But there is and was also sexism in those other fields you mention. And there are anecdotes such as the one that this thread is on that suggest that sexism in tech can have the opposite effect. So your argument isn't any more clear cut than the reverse argument. It certainly depends on a lot of anecdotes and assumptions about the direction of causation.
I want to be clear here. My intent isn't to argue that there isn't sexism in tech, or that it isn't a problem. (Again, I don't work in the Valley and wouldn't know) My intent is to argue that there are potentially other factors at play and if you don't consider them in your policy decisions, you will have a hard time correcting the problem.
No, it is not speculation. In my previous comment I mentioned a number of converging lines of evidence supporting this position.
>The SSC post shared multiple times in this thread is one example and I don't see any attempts to rebut this on your part.
Check the comments, and the reddit thread that he links to correcting his mistakes regarding Harvey Mudd. The argument is full of holes. Remember that SSC is just a blog, and it's written by someone who is not very well informed on these issues.
>Sure 'women keep telling us about sexism in tech'. I've read some of those anecdotes.
It's quite offensively dismissive to refer to multiple independent and credible reports of sexist behavior merely as "anecdotes". But I guess it's clear from this what your position really is, despite your claims to neutrality.
>And there are anecdotes such as the one that this thread is on that suggest that sexism in tech can have the opposite effect.
This isn't what the article actually says. The title is click-bait.
>My intent is to argue that there are potentially other factors at play
There are always "potentially" other factors at play. That is so weak a statement as to be meaningless.
That might or might not be so -- they might even be better than men.
But note that programming is not just the act of programming. When we talk about "programming jobs" we also talk about specific management structures, deadlines, pressure, long hours, etc. which women might not care about, while men, idiotic as they are, might find "cool" or "macho". After all, men are the idiots that companies lure with free sodas and fussball tables -- I don't think many women would fall for that kind of crap.
Either women and men as groups are fundamentally equal and there are no intrinsic differences between the two groups, neither in the averages nor distribution. In that case women should not need any special treatment to advance in the same careers. Any imbalance is either the result of bigotry within the field of work or prior to that at the gatekeepers (i.e. college, K12, family).
Or women and men as groups are different, either in the averages (i.e. on average, X are better at Y than Z) or in distribution (i.e. men and women are equally good at or interested in X but one group has more outliers on both ends of the scale). In this case gender parity can only be gained and maintained artificially because a perfectly fair unbiased selection would always result in a skewed balance.
Some studies seem to suggest the latter. We know this to true in sports (which is why e.g. the Olympics are strictly segregated by gender). It just becomes a political problem as soon as we try to propose that this hold true outside the pure physicality of competitive sports.
It's en vogue to treat humans as brains in a vat as soon as we discuss these issues but I'm not convinced this isn't the same fallacy as economists assuming pure rational actors and physicists assuming spherical cows in a vacuum.
EDIT: Obligatory note: gender discrimination is a thing, not just in tech. Corrective measures may help with that. But if we don't know which one of the two premises holds true (or rather to which extent each one is true in this specific case) we don't know whether we can reach both gender parity AND close the gender pay gap, at the same time.
The reason why is that this is not a problem with stable dynamics. If you know that Xs are better at Y than Zs, then upon meeting an X you will mentally assign a higher prior "competence" to them than to Z. As you evaluate them, the prior will eventually be replaced by a fair assessment of their skill, but it will never disappear completely. The end result is that at equal competence, you will hire more Xs than Zs.
Now, if, at equal competence, you hired as many Xs as Zs, you would have a ratio of 60/40. But your knowledge of this ratio gives you a prior that favors X, which means you do not do that. Instead, you will get a more skewed ratio, like 65/35. Seeing the discrepancy, Zs will believe that they are being discriminated against, and this will disincentivize them a little from pursuing Y. The Z applicants' quality will decrease, and the gap will widen. So the only way to really get the 60/40 ratio, paradoxically, would be to make sure that evaluators believe that it is 50/50... but then they might feel compelled to compensate for what they believe must be their own bias!
Anyway, it's a really complicated problem, and every side seems to be hoarding their own spherical cows about it.
Additionally there's still the problem that we're talking about spherical cows. Hiring policies don't exist in a vacuum. I'll talk about squares and triangles to keep it abstract.
Hiring only "the best of the best" is a quite popular strategy. Let's say the "shared average" model is correct and squares are overrepresented near the average of the applicant pool while underrepresented at the top and bottom. The "correct" ratio might be 60/40. The actual ratio for the top (and bottom) percentile might end up being closer to 90/10.
Now, depending on the size of the pool those 10% squares of the top percentile might be enough for one company to maintain its ratio while only hiring "the best of the best", or even several companies. But at some point companies will have to either sacrifice its ratio and hire more triangles or sacrifice its standards and hire squares who are weaker than some of the triangle candidates.
Note that so far I haven't even been talking about discrimination or perceived biases. This is what happens if we have perfectly rational actors with perfect knowledge of the market simply enacting the policy "only hire the best of the best" with the restriction of "try to maintain a ratio of 60/40".
You could argue sometimes going for the weaker candidate is worth it to combat the chilling effects of perceived biases. But it should be obvious why it's naive to expect any company to choose so voluntarily when it means the competition that doesn't follow the rule will get more better candidates.
And so far we're talking about a single property that is split pretty evenly across the greater population (even if the hiring pool might be unbalanced). What if 60% of the population is yellow, 30% are blue, 9% are green and 1% are red? Diversity programmes often aim for equal representation of minorities, not just for proportional representation. So that means you want 25% red. But you also want this for both sets of polygons, so at a 50/50 ratio you need to try to hire 12.5% red squares, 12.5% red triangles and so on for all colors. Next imagine 20% of squares and triangles also have rounded corners. And 1% changed their number of corners at some point in their lives.
This is clearly a field that needs unexcited empirical studies. Yet gender studies are seething with ideological bias, taking the conclusions a priori as self-evident. And critics are lumped in with those who are ideologically opposed.
I have no idea what the actual distributions look like. I don't know what the correct ratio would be. I know sexism exists. I also know plenty of women are put off by far more benign aspects of the field. I also know plenty of men are put off as well.
For all its flaws the Google Memo got one thing right: appealing to emotion (what he mistakenly called "empathy") is not the way to further our understanding of the situation. Personal anecdotes are heartwarming or gut-wrenching but anecdotes are not data. When scientific results don't match up with anecdotes that shouldn't mean the science is wrong. It just means "this warrants further study". Maybe the science is wrong, then we can find out how that happened and do more science while preventing the same mistakes. But maybe the anecdotes as important as they may feel are outliers. Or maybe both are true and there are problems we need to address but they distract from the actual cause.
It's not like climate change. With climate change if climate change is wrong, by addressing it we just end up wasting a lot of resource to make the world better nevertheless. With identity politics (assuming companies actually "lower the bar" for minorities to "fix" their ratios), if we're wrong, we've ended up treating a lot of people unfairly just to end up with numbers that look fairer.
I think we should continue encouraging women and minorities to get into tech. I also think we should combat sexism and bigotry in the industry. But I also think we should not forestall the conclusion when trying to understand the root cause of these disparities.
While I'm not sure how common the view is, one I've seen often enough is even worse because it limits itself to only cases where women are seen as losing out. So any case where women are worse is due to discrimination. Cases where men are worse might be due to discrimination, but might also be biological. At the least, there seems the view that men are biologically worse in some way seems far more socially acceptable than the opposite.
It may be that as a lot of folks have argued (including Scott Alexander[1]) that women are simply less inclined to go into tech for innate reasons. (Not saying that's true, but it seems at least plausible.) But even if true, it may also be true that systemic bias is still a problem. IOW, what the Google memo and a lot of other folks seem unable to acknowledge is that these points aren't mutually exclusive.
Ross Douthat -- not exactly a raging progressive -- makes this point well[2]:
"The memo was sometimes tone deaf, clinical, insensitive (in, well, a stereotypically male sort of way), understating the ways in which self-selection and sexism can shape an industry. Even if more men than women are attracted to a particular field, a male-dominated profession can be distinctly unpleasant for the women who work in it, in ways that can justify special scrutiny, recruitment and redress."
[1] http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/08/07/contra-grant-on-exagger...
[2] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/09/opinion/google-women-memo...
If there are innate differences in what men and women find fulfilling, you wouldn't expect to see equal participation in everything. Shooting for 50% quotas is then misguided, because all it means is that you're doing more work to find candidates that will pass your filter, as you're looking in a smaller pool on one of the two sides.
Sexist hiring practices isn't having fewer women than men. Sexist hiring practices are having a men:women ratio that is different from the ratio in the applicant pool. If the general population of developers is 90% men and 10% women, hiring 9 men for each woman is exactly what you'd expect to see in an unbiased hiring process.
I don't think "equally good" even makes sense. Of course there's nothing preventing women to be as good as men at programming, or vice-versa. You have to look at populations per level of competence, and that still doesn't mean that someone "can't" be as good as someone else. Maybe they're just not interested in that thing as much.
If you take the proportions in the applicant pool as given and unchangeable, then that may not be sexist per se, but it is perpetuating an imbalance that has its roots in sexism on a societal level.
Again, the mere existence of differences between men and women absolutely does not mean that you should expect there to be a difference in the size of the respective applicant pools. That is just bad logic. The argument is the same regardless of whether we are talking about interest or ability.
Certainly. We're just debating whether the proposed solutions are doing more good than harm.
> Again, the mere existence of differences between men and women absolutely does not mean that you should expect there to be a difference in the size of the respective applicant pools.
Why is that? Are we sure the distributions of things men and women like are exactly the same? Men and women are different both physically and psychologically, so what is the force that counterbalances the differences and makes the distributions of things each gender likes identical?
Because it is possible for two people to be very different and yet equally interested in and equally good at any particular task. It is obvious that men and women are different in some respects. What is not obvious that men and women differ in such a way that men are going to be better at programming, or more interested in it, than women are.
What is also not obvious is that they don't. Since men and women differ in pretty substantial ways, I think the burden of proof is on people who claim they're both interested in the same things equally.
It's fine if some demographics just aren't interested in some things, if they're free to choose them. It's not fine to say "no! You must be interested in whatever everyone else is interested in, otherwise the notion of equality I have doesn't make sense!"
To summarize, my entire point is that we should make it so each person can freely choose what they want, rather than trying to make the posterior distributions fit the model that we imagine must be the right one. That means no "boys can't play with dolls", no "engineering isn't for women", but also no gender/demographic quotas.
How convenient that the burden of proof is on people who disagree with you!
I think this is a very odd position to take, given that men and women have far more commonalities than differences. (After all, they are both human.) It doesn't seem sensible to take it as the default position that men and women are going to be differentially interested in any given thing to a significant extent.
>no gender/demographic quotas.
I didn't say anything about quotas, and I don't think anyone in this entire discussion said anything about them either, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from.
>my entire point is that we should make it so each person can freely choose what they want,
Everyone agrees with this point. But women are not free to choose what they want when they are systematically excluded from some professions.
I don't agree. And I think this is a core reason that the outreach is needed. Because of different points of view, and a broader candidate pool with different psychological make-ups, we can expand our viewpoint and do better, more interesting things.
I think that Google, Facebook, etc are not only reaching out to women in tech as a community gesture. I think that they see the value in the expanded viewpoint and the new things that can be developed because of it.
"So even if the disparities don’t start off as discrimination, you can still end up with an environment in which women who could be great engineers decide they’d rather do something else. A “natural” split of, say, 65-35 could evolve into a much more lopsided environment that feels downright unfriendly to a lot of women. And the women who have stuck around anyway are apt to get very mad indeed when they hear something that seems to suggest they’re not experiencing what they quite obviously are."
Worth reading in full: https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-08-09/as-a-woma...
It seems reasonable to me, therefore, that there should be an imbalance. To match what was a clear disparity in interest at the education level. If anything I see incredible imbalance in the opposite direction.
Anyone could have attended those classes for the cost of tuition. That isn't to say taking a class is all that could make sometime good at programming I'm just using it as a good reference to the fact there might actually be a difference.
That's not to say I think it must be exactly 50/50, and I definitely agree merit should be the consideration in hiring. But if young girls go to a general "learn about engineering" event and see 90% men presenting, go over a number of years, and never see a woman in computer or software engineering present, they probably wouldn't be very interested in those programs.
And if they got to college and started in the program, they are one of (literally) about 2 women in the ~100 freshman, they do have additional challenges to face in the program. Numerous times I've seen women in engineering groups bring up a point, get it poo-poo'd, only for a man to think of it a few minutes later and advance the team on the project. Watch for it, it happens more than you'd think. They will likely also face some degree of awkward guys asking them for dates, really awkward social interactions with some members of their major members, etc.
There's a study (I can't find it right now) which looked at the composition of groups in engineering classes. IIRC, groups with 1/4 woman member had very low participation levels by the woman, but comparable levels with 2/4.
What do you mean by this?
> these people think that girls have been conditioned, and the can be reeducated to like tech.
Boys and girls are conditioned by their toys and hobbies at a young age. Statistically, boys are encouraged to play with toys that develop their large motor and spatial skills while girls are encouraged to play with toys that develop their social and emotional skills. These "getting girls into coding" workshops are used to expose girls to toys and skills that they might have not had the chance to experience before. There is no "reeducating to like tech" going on. These events are purely voluntary and from my experience, the girls have a ton of fun.
> What do you mean by this?
What I mean is that as a parent, I'm sometimes puzzled by very strong opinions and preferences my children have. It struck me at the very beginning, before they had a chance of being conditioned by other kids from the kindergarten etc. Mostly they were conditioned by us, the parents.
My boy loved airplanes. He didn't like cars much, just airplanes. I like cars and I'd like him to like cars. Also, as a male parent, I'd like my daughter to do certain things I like. I was only partially successful, she still loves much more certain things I detest (all this princess stuff, I think it's terrible for a number of reasons, but that's not the point here).
What I want to say is that children have their feelings and preferences. And if you ignore these and try to implant in them other preferences, you're basically going against their will. I saw it happen many times. For example, there are some excellent teachers who do their best and manage to kindle a spark of interest in young heads for any subject. But it never works for all students. Some are more interested, some less. Trying to get those who are less interested at all cost doesn't seem the right thing to do to me. This is what I mean by "ignoring feelings".
In the extreme case of attempting to put ideology before reality, you end up with the appalling story of this activist kindergarten teacher : so desperate to see girls interested in LEGOs (she sees them flocking towards dolls and crayons instead) and to actively correct "bias", she decides to take the bricks away from the boys.
http://www.bainbridgereview.com/news/blakely-teacher-restric...
“I always tell the boys, ‘You’re going to have a turn’ — and I’m like, ‘Yeah, when hell freezes over’ in my head”, she says.
My point is that we shouldn't raise children in an environment where a boy never has the chance to play with dolls or a girl never has the chance to play with Lego. We should expose children to all different types of toys and ideas, and let them decide what they enjoy.
It's clear that Karen Keller shouldn't have discouraged the boys from playing with Lego in the classroom. These "women in tech" events don't discourage girls from playing with toys or makeup. These events expose girls to tech related toys or ideas and if the girls enjoy it, good for them. If the girls don't enjoy the event, they aren't pushed into attending more "women in tech" events. I don't see any harm with exposing young students to ideas they might have not been exposed to before.
> And if you ignore these and try to implant in them other preferences, you're basically going against their will.
These "women in tech events" are purely voluntary and if anyone wants to leave for any reason, they can get up and go. I have never seen someone pushed against their will or preferences at these events. I agree that if a student isn't interested in a subject, you shouldn't push it on them. I don't see how exposing a student to an area of study in a completely positive matter is pushing someone against their will.
From : https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2583786/
"Male monkeys, like boys, showed consistent and strong preferences for wheeled toys, while female monkeys, like girls, showed greater variability in preferences. Thus, the magnitude of preference for wheeled over plush toys differed significantly between males and females. The similarities to human findings demonstrate that such preferences can develop without explicit gendered socialization."
I think it's OK to want to expand out and recruit from non-traditional demographics. I think it's OK to create initiatives to create interest in specific fields in specific groups. That's what sports teams do to attract new fans (maybe a region is home to new Chinese immigrants and the local baseball team wants them to be baseball fans). That's what universities do to attract students. Where it crosses the line for me is when nefarious reasons are used to attribute non-representative ratios. Then it changes from this positive thing that everyone can get behind and support to this ugly negative thing where it's us vs them.
Now mind you I have absolutely no problem with this, I think getting broader swathes of society into tech is a good thing, but I think it's fairly clear that their are groups advocating for this.