Comment by jasode | Hacker News Reader

Comment by jasode | Hacker News Reader

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>There's not a lot of room for people to be in CS/SWE and not take part in all this non-work community.

There's actually plenty of room for that type of programmer personality: the jobs at non-software companies where programmers are a cost center. E.g. enterprisey - line-of-business - type of programming. Actually, the "back-office" type of software dev is the majority of programming jobs out there. Yes, there may be a few "enterprise" managers here or there that might be impressed with extra-curricular programming but it's often not a reasonable scenario. (E.g. virtually no programmer that knows a 4GL like SAP ABAP language (business process programming) will be maintaining a github profile full of ABAP code.)

It's the founders and managers at tech companies that value the developers that enjoy programming on their own. The founders themselves often started programming as kids and so it makes the most sense to them to try and attract programmers with the same enthusiasm.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to be strictly a 9-to-5 Mon-Fri programmer. That life approach meshes better with companies outside of Silicon Valley.

It meshes fine with virtually all companies. Companies that attempt to cram 60 hours of productivity into 40 hour weeks suffer for it: their employees burn large amounts of time doing nonproductive stuff while maintaining "face time", and quality suffers terribly as people do shoddy work to maintain the preferred cadence.

Nobody who spends significant amounts of time with valley programmers believes that the 10-hour-day 6-day-a-week people are, in general, spending all that time productively.

>Companies that attempt to cram 60 hours of productivity into 40 hour weeks suffer for it:

Sorry for not being clear. I'm not talking about burning 60+ hours for the company.

I'm talking about the attraction to programming personalities that truly enjoy programming on their own time. E.g... The programmer spends exactly 40 hours for Google/Facebook/Microsoft and another 20 on his weekend programming side project because he enjoys it.

On the other hand... if you're a Peoplesoft/SAP programmer, no hiring manager cares that you don't write that code "for fun" on your own time as a hobby.

Plenty of seriously hardcore people do not spend 20 hours on their weekends writing more code. Obviously, there are lots of programmers who do, but I think what's happening here is pretty simple: the people who have "writing more computer code" as their personal hobby are excited to feel superior to those who don't.

>I think what's happening here is pretty simple: the people who have "writing more computer code" as their personal hobby are excited to feel superior to those who don't.

Maybe some of that sentiment is happening. That's orthogonal to the point that programmers who enjoy programming as a passion (that's a dangerous word) naturally will prefer hiring programmers who enjoy it beyond the boundaries of a 40-hour job.

It's just human affinity. Think of rock bands starting up in a garage. The singer + bass player + drummer are looking to add a guitarist. If they interview a guitarist and he says, "well, I'll just strum whatever and it don't matter if I play with you guys or on a cruise ship or a Las Vegas lounge bar -- guitar is just a job", he won't get an offer to join. For the band members, music is their life.

Since programming is often "fun" and software engineering is similar to "artistry", it's natural for programmers who enjoy coding for fun to want to hang around other programmers who enjoy it in a similar degree. This culture is especially true for startups. As the company matures, it becomes less important.

Sucks if you're a new parent who codes, doesn't it?

I'm a new parent who codes, and it is difficult, but not impossible. I would note that you keep attempting to analyse (or rather, guess) the emotions of people you disagree with, and it might be better to stay logical and systematic in order to communicate effectively.

I didn't notice that in any of tptacek comments. It might be better if you resist projecting?

> I think what's happening here is pretty simple: the people who have "writing more computer code" as their personal hobby are excited to feel superior to those who don't.

Wait, all of them? That's a pretty sweeping generalization. I think you should allow for the possibility that a substantial fraction of them do it because they enjoy it.

Also, often the sentiment goes the other way. Like:

- So, how was the weekend?

- Awesome! I've learned about this cool algorithm...

- Hey, what's wrong with you? Get a life, like, go see some movies or something...

Whoah. I'm not saying that people who write code for fun all do this. I write code for fun and so does my wife. I'm saying that people who claim that writing code for fun makes them superior developers do this.

Good. Because the way I interpreted your comment is that you are opposed to the whole notion.

> people who claim that writing code for fun makes them superior developers do this

What is "this" in this sentence? If "this" = "excited to feel superior" (from your previous comment), then the sentence reads almost like a tautology. If you simply mean that bragging and feeling smug about writing code for fun is kinda pathetic, then I agree. But that's true for bragging and feeling smug about, well, almost anything.

It's fine to brag and feel smug about disliking TFA and the misogynistic "memo" for which it apparently has some sympathy...

> Nobody who spends significant amounts of time with valley programmers believes that the 10-hour-day 6-day-a-week people are, in general, spending all that time productively.

I've probably worked that much before during hypomanic episodes. I can't keep it up indefinitely though.

Those particular personal projects that hit the sweet spot and lead me on a 2-week, barely-coming-up-for-air frenzy of creation? Yeah, I'll put in that much work and more in one stretch.

The odds of hitting that level of flow on a paid work project? Sure I care, but it's never going to meet the criteria and get that far under my skin. I can believe in the merits of a goal/project to the highest degree, but if it's not scratching the particular itch that takes me into the zone, I get some kind of x-factor, then I'll never be able to hit the 100% flow state for any significant period of time.

Just personal experience, I think there are others who are far more capable of getting 100% into that kind of work.

Maintaining an interest in one's field outside of work != 60 hour work week. In fact they are antithetical - 60 hour week doesn't leave much room for anything else, engineering-related or not.

> There's actually plenty of room for that type of programmer personality

And how do you get into those jobs when even CS students still share the same culture? It goes back to the chart I mentioned:

http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/percent-bachel...

my father taught programming and CS-lite courses at a community college for decades. whatever culture the students have, it sure as hell isn't the valley one, or anything like i saw in university.

I'm not talking about valley culture, but, for example, liking star wars, XKCD, Tolkien, video games, etc.

Do the students in those community colleges share that as well?

i know what you're talking about, and no, his students didn't share that culture, or any other you're worried about. or probably any you've ever even seen unless you're from the rural south. in which case we wouldn't even be having this conversation in the first place.

At my old university, we were the kind of programmers that HN and the Valley in general loves to hate: bro-grammers.

Half the students were in a fraternity or sorority, and the engineering college as a whole had its own co-ed service fraternity.

Most common topics of discussion: beer, that last episode of Miami Vice, and trading tips on how to beg professors for server time so we can complete our final projects and graduate.

>The founders themselves often started programming as kids

i'm not sure where you get this conclusion that those who enjoy extracurricular programming often started as kids.

Usually those who started as a kid means they were fortunate enough to have parents who were programmers. Even if they're parents weren't that case, then usually its the case of just doing html/css on myspace

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