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Comment by nvarsj | Hacker News Reader

As an expat, the main reason I'd give up my citizenship is dealing with the extremely onerous IRS and FINCEN filing requirements. Last year I probably spent 20-40 hours on this crap, just to prove I owe nothing. My tax return has been to tax court even though it was 100% perfect, simply because IRS doesn't have the expertise to evaluate their own murky laws around foreign employment. Everything is okay as long as you are a permanent employee without a self-controlled pension. Step out of the bounds and you're in for a world of pain. It seems so unnecessary and stupid to me. You also get double taxed on some things, like house purchase/sales in the UK. Expats really get the shaft from the US gov.

Note it's not cheap to expatriate either. It's 2000 a family member plus possible exit tax. IRS can also pursue you for taxes afterwards if they think you did it to explicitly avoid taxes. There is no 100% escape.

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It puts the lie to the "social contract" / "you agreed to be taxed because you haven't left" argument.

You must ask permission to renounce your citizenship, and the government can deny your request, meaning you can't just leave. Then they charge you lots of money to leave, as you've explained.

Wait, the US government can deny your renunciation of citizenship?

And they charge you $2350 for the privilege.

>Expats really get the shaft from the US gov.

And worse, while you're still entitled to vote for your representatives in the last place you lived in the US, politically, why would they even give you the time of day?

There are a lot of Americans living abroad, estimated to be 3-9 million, excluding military. Collectively more than a number of states. Yet their distribution means that Americans' voices abroad fall on deaf ears in Washington.

It would be nice if the US allocated some house seats to expats like many European counties.

If you're an expatriate (i.e. you've given up your citizenship), why do you need voting representation? I don't see the logic here.

no taxation without representation!

also, he's not saying that ppl who give up their citizenship should have fair voting representation. it's the people who are still americans who just happen to live overseas. we are still paying US taxes and therefore should have proper representation.

if i didnt have to pay US taxes, i wouldn't care.

While the term is loaded with baggage (vs. immigrate, for example) it doesn't make a claim with respect to citizenship gained or lost, especially in this context.

The old Hotel California rule. US Citizens are the only people in the world (besides a very small african nation) that still have to file and pay income taxes back home when they are no longer living in the United States. So much for being free.

I hear North Korea has a similar policy.

The other country being Eritrea.

Brazil as well.

Allow me to request clarification. You say "...explicitly to avoid taxes." Is that attempting to evade taxes you already owe, or avoid paying taxes in the future? I mean, I could see an IRS auditor attempting to claim that as a reason for expatriating, "I no longer want to pay US tax" isn't acceptable and here's your tax bill for all that time you've been living elsewhere. (That's not to say the auditor's claim would ultimately be fruitful...)

Assuming you mean the former, I can certainly see the IRS coming after expats for evasion. And why not? But they cannot be allowed to run roughshod over just anyone they "feel" is evading.

Last I check (which admittedly was a long time ago), the US will continue to tax you for 10 years after you give up your citizenship, if it thinks you're doing so to avoid taxes or if your net-worth is over $100k.

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