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_Codemonkeyism

Cash workflow:

- Cashier tells you the total amount

- I get a 10 EUR note from my trouser pocket

- Cashier gives back money

- I put money in trouser pocket

- Done

- Home: I put all spare money in a large glass jar

Credit card workflow:

- Cashier tells you the total amount

- You look in your wallet/purse

- You swipe card/insert in chip reader

- You insert PIN number

- You shield your PIN entrie from the people next to you

- You tell people too close to back off

- Chip reader did not work because of humidity

- You insert PIN again

- You tolerate the angry stares from people behind you who think you're either stupid or broke

- You wait 5 sec for transaction to fish

- You put card back in wallet

- You put wallet back in trouser pocket

- Done

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I agreed. Paying with card is fraught with slow terminals, bad card readers, many prompts in a row (Credit or debt, is this the right amount, do you want to donate $1 to something, do you want it all on one card, would you like to sign up for a store credit card, do you want cash back, how much, do you want a receipt?). For some reason, these all have a 2-5 second delay between them. I could make a system on a $2 arduino that was faster.

Some places like Starbucks seem to get it right. Swipe card and go.

Target however likes to hit you with all the options. Self checkout is even worse.

Note for the American readers:

in the glorious lands across the ocean, chip cards of all kinds use a PIN instead of a signature, which makes way more sense anyway. Chip & sign is an American abomination.

Is this something that only triggers above a certain threshold? On the east coast, whenever I go to the grocery store, its just insert chip and press ok. I've never had to sign or enter a pin.

No, everywhere else in the world (basically) it's chip-and-PIN. In the US, it seems to be chip-and-signature (which defeats one of the biggest benefits of chip cards).

When I was in Seattle at a restaurant trying to pay, the owner told me that they also couldn't accept tips if they used chip cards. I thought she was BSing me into paying cash but she tried to swipe the card instead so that I could.

It's amazing how, in the US, even the implementation of new technologies is broken and awful.

This is called "expedited checkout". This is a merchant option to help speed up the checkout process. However the merchant is then taking all responsibility for fraudulent transactions.

Many US-based stores only bother with a signature for amounts over a certain threshold (often $50).

I've seen it typically trigger above $50 at grocery stores in the US.

I always just scribble or write celebrity names, since there's no security benefit to a signature.

In the US, the credit card security comes from the vantage of "it's quite literally.... not your money". If there are any failures in security, the bank pays, thus ease of use is of greatest concern to the consumer.

In the USA, its rare that you'd have to sign for anything under $20.

I think maybe this is a cultural thing. In Europe it seems people associate "credit" with "being in debt" which of course isn't (necessarily) true. It just means someone else is on the line until you reconcile, and this is the beauty of credit cards – they make it tremendously easy to safeguard your own money. Just make sure to pay off the bill at the end of the month and everything is solid.

Because of this, credit cards in Europe tend to not have the same great benefits you can find on cards in the US. AMEX is pretty good still, but there isn't exactly tons of competition in the credit card space here.

I love signature, because I play the credit card sign up game. Hard to remember PINs when you open a card a month.

Also because if my card gets stolen, I'm assured that my pin wasn't lifted by camera or keypad shim. The signature will be not present or not mine on fraudulent transactions, so I can tell my card issuer to fix it and not worry about them telling me I had "poor PIN security" or that it was somehow my fault.

As a non-american I have to ask: why sign up for new credit cards all the time?

Because credit card companies offer incentives to sign up for their cards. A lot of people here regularly carry a lot of debt on their cards, and the credit card companies know if they give those users more cards to juggle around their debt on, they can leach more money from them.

For financially responsible people, that means you can sometimes get a few freebees if you're willing to deal with the hassle.

I don't know what it's like in most other places, but debt is a weird part of culture here.

I'm British, and while some people have credit cards, most people I know don't. I have a bank debit card and I use the single card to pay for pretty much everything I don't pay for directly with cash. I have zero debt, because I always pay up front for everything.

I do get lots of junk mail for credit cards, have done for decades, so I could get one tomorrow if I desired. But I don't see any real value in doing so; why get into debt if you can avoid it.

I use a (n.b. singular, not multiple) credit card from AMEX for the benefits. (Particularly excellent travel insurance and car rental benefits.) I make sure to never spend more than I can pay off at the end of the month, so that I don't actually ever get into debt. My own money is resting nicely in a bank account until the credit card bill arrives.

I never spend my own money directly unless I have to (e.g. the merchant doesn't accept AMEX or only takes cash etc.) because should I end up with fraudulent transactions or lose my card or whatever it may be, I have actual cash to back it up.

If you're fiscally responsible and make sure to always pay off the bill at the end of the month (with all that money you didn't spend) then credit cards are pretty much nothing but benefit. There may be a yearly fee associated (my card has one) with it but I've found it to be worth it for the benefits alone, but I also rack up so many points that I can use those to pay for the fee.

I used to agree regarding pin vs sign, until reading on here today how much slower European systems seem to be.

Note for the European readers:

You can call your bank, get your card switched over to Freedom™ mode and enjoy faster payments.

Might not want to do this with a debit however.

I have a credit card from Luxembourg that is somehow set up to ask for signature, even though it can do PIN just fine, and I really don't recommend this setting in Europe, it's a massive pain in the ass since most merchants aren't equipped to deal with that. You end up having to sign the merchant's receipt with a pen like you're back in 1970, it takes a lot more time than entering your PIN (or better yet, contactless without PIN these days).

(And I did complain to their customer service, but they won't change the setting).

Depends on the country, in many EU countries I find chip+sign payments to be way faster than chip+PIN. Every now and then you run into a cashier that gets confused by chip+sign, but not often enough to justify switching back to chip+PIN in my experience.

Credit card workflow in Australia for anything under $100:

- Cashier types in the total to the EFTPOS terminal

- You get your wallet

- You remove your card

- You tap your carda gainst the contactless reader, which registers the payment in about 1 second not 5 as you describe

- Cashier asks 'would you like a receipt for that?'

- You say 'no receipt, cheers mate'

- You put your card away

- You put your wallet away

If you pay over $100, you enter a pin and it takes maybe a little longer because no one crowds around each other at the payment area so there's none of what you describe and it always works despite the humidity you apparently describe.

As we don't have a tip culture, we don't see donation/tips/etc. prompts as others describe. It's only ever whether you want a receipt, and that's a single button press and you can pre-emptively say no to that so it doesn't even slow you down. Cash definitely takes longer here.

Cash Workflow:

- Cashier gives you the total - I pull out the bills I have and find the best denomination - I get a bunch of change back I have to stuff into my pocket along with my bills while getting my stuff out of the way for the next person

Credit card workflow: - Cashier tells you the total - You say "debit" or "credit" and the cashier pushes a button on the register - You pull out your credit card, touch it to the machine, and then put it away and start packing up your stuff to leave - The machine beeps and you leave

Far less fuss, far less opportunity for dropping change. Simple and efficient. I have my card out, tapped, and back within 5 seconds and my transaction is complete, and I never have to worry about if I have enough or too much.

In Canada:

- Cashier asks if I'm paying with a credit or debit card.

- Cashier enters the total amount into POS terminal. Meanwhile I pull my card from wallet.

- I tap the terminal with my CC.

- I put my card back into wallet. Meanwhile the cashier asks if I need the receipt.

- Optionally: take the receipt.

- Done.

Where the hell do you live that people think you are broke if you pay by card? And even then, who cares. Also, in supermarkets or so, there is a line and most of the time I see people respect privacy... payment by card is certainly faster unless you know in advance the amount and you already have the money ready in your hands...

Cash workflow:

- Cashier tells you the total amount

- Since I was watching the register display, I already have a rough idea how much this will be, and I have prepared the bills to hand over.

- Cashier gives change and receipt

- I walk away, and after I'm out of the way, I put the change into my wallet.

- Done

Similarly, credit card workflow (American):

- Cashier tells you the total amount

- You insert in chip reader a card you already had out

- You sign, sometimes

- You wait 5 sec for transaction to finish

- You put card back in wallet while receipt is printing

- You put wallet back in trouser pocket while receiving receipt

- Done

The time spent on these is very, very similar. Being prepared with your form of payment and dealing with putting away the results (change, card, receipt) after you leave the line results in a very similar time. Signing (or pin) and waiting on the transaction takes a comparable amount of time to the cashier counting your payment and making change. In each case, less than 15 seconds, and at that point, who cares?

But you left out the step of having to get the cash money into your pocket to begin with. I haven't touched cash in many years, but back when I did use cash it was always a pain having to go to the bank, or an ATM, or remembering to ask for money back once debit cards became a thing.

funnily I often get my cash when buying groceries.

I pay with my banks card (not a credit but a debit card) and then ask them for cash on top of the groceries. I am often the only one paying with a card if any kind though.

that way i have cash for all the things were paying with a card is frowned upon in germany:

- eating out - going on a fair - getting ice cream with the kids - going to the public pool with the kids - giving kids their allowance :)

and other things of that nature

PS: Since cash payments make it difficult for marketers to 'understand' their customers there are a number of cashback card systems like 'payback' in germany which try to get people to identify themselves.

I was in Germany a few days ago. My credit card workflow:

- Cashier tells me total amount.

- I get my card from my wallet.

- I hold the card near the terminal.

- 2-3 seconds pass, terminal goes "Approved".

- Done.

It's easier than cash. Almost every store I went to had wireless card terminals, even coffee shops and supermarkets.

but you have to have a credit card that does that :) I for example don't have one, even though I do have a credit card for travels. Most Germans I know also don't want one because they usually cost extra money. And that is apart from the fact that the entire name 'Kreditkarte' -> credit card, implies one requires credit i.e don't have that money, not an easy sell here. Paying a yearly fee for having to look as if one needs credit :)

also its always a guessing game whether you have to enter a pin or sign. it seems a random distribution. same shop, same amount, sometimes pin sometimes signature.

PS: I am not saying its good or bad, just trying to give people a feel about some of us Germans

Germans have debit cards, which are also contactless. I never had to enter a pin when doing contactless.

Around my area in the Northeast of the US, Apple Pay is becoming ubiquitous. I just put my iPhone near the reader and use touch id. It takes seconds at most and I don't have to expose my wallet to would-be muggers.

And I wish we could solves the coin changes from Cash.

I like Paper Cash / Notes. I dont like Coins.

Another Reason I like Debit Card or NFC Recharge Cards like those in Japan is that they actually require me Charge the card first. This action will live in my subconscious how much I have spend. I know this is an unpopular motive in US where they just want you to spend and spend.

And Getting rid of Cash ( The so call Cashless Society ) is like having less freedom in a what is already less free world then before.

Credit cards don't require a PIN. Just get a credit card and pay it off every month. Free points!

America has much higher "rewards" than anywhere else. The reward money comes straight out of merchant fees.

Exactly. I'll continue to use my card whenever possible to save at least 2% on every transaction. But this comes at the cost of getting my CC data stolen from shitty POSs 1-2 times a year. Small inconvenience, but worth it.

The merchant fees do fund a substantial portion of the rewards programs for cards.

However, there's a pretty large market for credit/debit card transaction data. Even Google purchases it[1]. Both your credit card company and the payment processors/networks themselves are able to monetize this data quite effectively. And the more complete people's transaction histories get the more effective this data becomes for different uses and the more the companies can charge for it.

Depending on the demographic a particular card is able to capture, the transaction history may be valuable enough to run the rewards program at a loss or break even when looked at purely from the merchant fees recouped.

[1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2017/05/23...

I think that only applies to the US. My credit card has a PIN. You don't need it for contactless payments but they are limited to €30.

In India all credit card transactions need a PIN after the card is swiped.

Chip cards in most places in the world require a PIN. It's only the US where (I've ever seen) chip-and-signature (which is a horrible and flawed implementation).

Australia: Tap for anything under $100, no PIN, choose whether or not you want a receipt, done.

In Germany credit cards are very uncommon. We use debit cards, many places don't accept credit cards (but debit cards), some places accept only cash. Paying with a credit card also has a fee while paying by cash or debit cards is free.

- You get asked if you want cash back

- You get asked if you want to donate to (charity/cause)

...

- Or you approach your wallet to the reader and pay via NFC.

- Done.

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