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Comment by greenyoda | Hacker News Reader

Companies like this have been around for years, and whenever I read about them I'm surprised that people would risk going to prison (or worse) just to get a discounted air fare. I wouldn't even carry a package for a friend unless I could see exactly what was inside, let alone carry a suitcase full of unknown stuff for a total stranger.

Also, an inevitable question when going through security checkpoints in some countries is "did you pack your own luggage". I assume that if you answer "no", you'd be subjected to a very thorough search for bombs or contraband.

Calling a company "Airmule" seems to be a particularly bad choice, since the term "mule" is commonly used to denote a person who carries smuggled drugs (sometimes concealed inside their body).

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>Calling a company "Airmule" seems to be a particularly bad choice, since the term "mule" is commonly used to denote a person who carries smuggled drugs (sometimes concealed inside their body).

No kidding. One has to wonder how the founders can't be aware of that. Perhaps it was intended as a tongue-in-cheek name?

Perhaps it was. But security and customs officers aren't known for their great sense of humor, so it's probably best to stick with names that don't suggest drug trafficking.

I agree completely. In fact, I'd wager every time customs hears the name it's bound to trigger further scrutiny, even if subconsciously.

Side note: Just a few days ago I flew domestically within Australia just a week after some anti-terror arrests and increased security screening (which has since been lifted). As my bag went through it got flagged and the security officer flagged the aerosol can. I was already pretty nervous already, so I apologise profusely for the mistake.

Turns out the security officer was just a Regular Person, claimed deodorant cans are his "bread and bitter" and had a little chuckle as he found it in my toiletries bag.

What airport security had to say about a regular person impersonating security agents?

> What airport security had to say about a regular person impersonating security agents?

I initially read madeofpalk's comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14940680) as it seems that you might have, so that it seemed to say that the supposed security agent was not actually a security agent; but a second reading suggests that the meaning is instead that, in addition to being a security agent, the person in question was a Regular Person, and had a sense of humour.

Repeated readings still do not reveal whether an Australian security agent referring to something as his "bread and bitter" is a typo or intentional. :-)

A bread & bitter is a typical Australian breakfast of stale bread and (when available) an anise liquor.

It's derived from the continental "existentialist breakfast" of a black coffee, cigarette, and Aspirin–but had to be adapted due to the bad availability of commercial products in the past, as well as the higher activity levels the Australian bush requires and the resulting danger of a breakfast completely devoid of calories.

I had to look it up to see if you were serious or not. There does happen to be a brewpub by that name in Nottingham though.

http://www.castlerockbrewery.co.uk/pubs/bread-and-bitter/

I can't tell if this is real or not. I guess the joke is on me for not knowing if you're satirizing with bitter and liquor or not.

As @jonah found out, it's just a joke–only the "existentialist breakfast" is a real thing that probably started as a joke, and that I've seen on one or two menus of cafes willing to skirt the rules on selling pharmaceuticals.

But the joke is most definitely not "on you". As in: It wasn't meant to expose anybody's shocking lack of knowledge of arcane Australian trivia.

The idiom is definitely "bread and butter", perhaps madeofpalk was making a joke about his accent?

U and I are adjacent on QWERTY. Easy typo. Even worse pick-up line. “Hey baby, I prefer QWERTY because it puts U and I together.”

If they wanted a tongue in cheek name, they should have called it RectalExpress.

Perhaps to allow self selection to do its thing and interact only with those stupid enough.

I remember an article at WSJ years ago on how many startup founders choose such tongue in cheek / humorous names and how that is almost always a bad choice. But calling this airmule is insane.

On the risks, I wonder if making the person carrying an extra bag the temporary owner of it (and showing him the packing of the luggage) so he can always say no would help making it safer for the user. But I personally would never do this even in this setup.

If I'd have wanted to satirise the worst elements of the "gig economy" and SV founders' wilful exploitation of grey areas in laws, I'd probably have bought the domain name Airmule and set up a Smuggling As A Service marketplace. Of course, to make it a bit more obviously a Very Bad Idea and not just a neat little hack I'd focus my "areas of operation" on a country which executes drug smugglers and gives no preferential treatment whatsoever to naive Western backpackers whose parents and embassies can get them good lawyers.

I'm still hoping they're not actually in operation and this is just a PR stunt to promote their actual business of selling Chinese Visa arrangement services (also on the website), but I'm not holding out too much hope.

Hah this would make for a great satire site with that domain name. Or maybe not. Clearly it wouldn't have gone far enough since this seems real.

Airmule is people?

Maybe change the company name to "Brokedown Palace"?

Customs officials are well known for their senses of humor.

I wouldn't even carry luggage for my wife or my mother, even if traveling with them. My mother once said "We haven't had problems with my morphine when we visited China (She's old and suffers from hip arthrosis). Actually I had put half in your dad's luggage, in case they lost mine." My dad wasn't happy, especially at how casual she sounded. She didn't even carry the doctor's ordinance. Most people don't understand the risks of being abroad.

I had to take narcotics into Dubai for a health issue I was facing at the time. You can bet I had the clearly marked prescription bottle with the minimum amount I needed for my trip along with a note from my doctor explaining the medication. The medication was always accompanied by those, too.

As screwed up as drug laws are in the US, they are child's play compared to what some countries have. And once they think that you might be trafficking, you are in for a bad day.

"Also, an inevitable question when going through security checkpoints in some countries is "did you pack your own luggage". I assume that if you answer "no", you'd be subjected to a very thorough search for bombs or contraband."

Yeah, but that's actually probably not the biggest problem here. A thorough search for bombs is just that - a thorough search. Some people are selected randomly for this kind of search. Unless you're actually carrying a bomb (and that is one thing this company does say it protects against), then you shouldn't have to worry about this.

(Although all the other things said against them seem exactly right to me, so I'm not in any way endorsing them.)

I always suspected if you answer 'no' to that question then they'll just refuse to check the luggage.

I always suspected there's a lot more than just that. Basically, an intensified inspection and whatever follows from the findings.

If they allow you to continue flying that is.

Of course they inspect first, for as long as it takes, and whether your flight goes without you is secondary.

This was my first thought. If you don't want people to think they're doing something shady, don't call them mules..

Doesn't have to be shady. "Hey guy, please bring these South East Asian fruit to Australia for my family". Lack of knowledge of local laws could cause you some headaches.

Next up on Australian border patrol

No shit. A friend of mine brought an apple from Sydney to Perth. 500 dollar fine. Yes, from within Australia to another place in Australia.

What in the world? Why is this?

Diseases in one part of the country could spread to another. Australia and NZ have strict biosecurity because their isolation means they missed out on a lot of diseases that affect produce and animals in other parts of the world.

Western Australia is separated from farms in the rest of the country by ~1000 km of desert, meaning there are various pests in the rest of the country that they don't want to see introduced, and thus enforce strict quarantine measures: https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/importing-animals/quarantine-wa-...

FWIW, California also has agricultural quarantine measures, they're just much more half-assed.

Hawaii does not play around with its own agricultural (et al) quarantines. Every time you fly into the state, you must declare items on a special state checklist, for exactly the same reasons.

Hawaii also (?) checks for agricultural products when you leave the islands:

http://www.govisithawaii.com/2009/07/16/be-prepared-for-agri...

Because there are crop diseases endemic in one part of the country that aren't present in another. Try searching for "Nevada California fruit" if that's closer to home.

Australia is an island so it has a fairly unique biodiversity. For international flights bringing in fruits is a concern since it can introduce pests that don't otherwise exist in Australia.

Australia is also a very large island, and the biodiversity of the east coast is very different to that of the west coast, so the same concerns apply. If you drive along the highways between states you'll see signs telling you to dispose of your fruit.

http://www.interstatequarantine.org.au/

We take protecting our agriculture very seriously. You don't want an outbreak of something in one state to spread to another.

It kinda makes sense. We're so isolated geographically, when something happens in other parts of the world, we have a very good chance of protecting ourselves.

I believe Australia actually has the oldest vineyards in the world. Something took out the vineyards everywhere else in the world.

Fruit flies.

> An Apple from Sydney to Perth

Wait, what? There's no screening or security on domestic arrivals in Australia. There's no customs. There's no signage warning about this. This is the first I've ever heard of this and I have trouble believing this.

Can't speak for Perth, but flights into Tasmania absolutely go through another round of biosecurity screening.

There is quarantine, though:

http://www.interstatequarantine.org.au/travellers/interstate...

Driving or flying to or from WA, you will see inspectors and dogs.

Huh that's so interesting. I've done plenty of flying along Eastern Australia so I never had a reason to presume there was anything more over in WA.

Thanks.

Every eastern state airport I've ever seen has fruit bins at the gate or on the airbridge, and there is frequently an on-board announcement near TOD that some states prohibit bringing in fruit.

They 100% don't have disposal bins at Sydney T3, nor do I remember them at Melbourne or Brisbane. I've spent a lot of time in that airport, sometimes without even flying and I've never seen anything other than just regular bins and the "oops I forgot this bottle of water" before security.

Water and liquids are permitted through security on domestic flights from domestic airport terminals. No reason to dump your bottle of water.

http://travelsecure.infrastructure.gov.au/onboard/liquids-ae...

there is frequently an on-board announcement near TOD that some states prohibit bringing in fruit

Yup, was about to mention this. I did Sydney to Perth a couple of weeks ago & Qantas made that announcement close to landing. In particular, they mention not to bring honey into Western Australia, and to talk to a flight attendant if you were carrying honey.

I do remember seeing signage (somewhere) in Perth on arrival, but I don't remember seeing any disposal bins.

I live in Launceston Tasmania, there's a fruit bin on the way in to the airport from the tarmac. Nearly every time I've been to the airport here there is a Beagle getting about on the luggage carousel.

Now that I think about it, that dog might not be there entirely for fruit. There was a bit of a spate of people bringing ice (meth-amphetamine) in through checked baggage a couple years ago. Who does that?

Beagles usually are used for smelling foods (vegetables and meats), not drugs.

Unfortunately the beagles are mostly gone from Hobart airport. There's just the one now, I'm told, and s/he wasn't on duty last I flew down. Family that fly through there regularly all say they havnt seen it on duty much either.

This made my paranoid checking of whether my chosen brand of fruit-oil containing shower gel would be permitted kind of redundant.

For somewhere there's not supposed to be fruit fly, we sure saw a lot of fruit flies.

There's similar if you go north of Brisbane. Turns out, having a ridiculously sparse population is also a good defence against the spread of plant diseases.

There's actually signs somewhere north of BNE telling truckies that they can't take bananas past that point, for example.

Does California still have the agricultural prohibitions? I can remember the fruit fly traffic inspections in the '70s.

I've also been sniffed by a Dept. of Agriculture beagle coming back from Puerto Rico.

I-10 from AZ still has an inspection station that seemed to wave through most passenger vehicles.

Same in South Australia, mostly to prevent the spread of Fruit Fly (confined to eastern part of Australia). WA and SA rely economically on fruit plantations, so the noxious fruit fly could cause grave damage to local economies.

Don't travel with fruit in Australia, its the height of selfishness.

Of course, this would be even worse if the fruits in questions are https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durian

This looks like this "amazing startup idea" is directly taken from a Narcos (netflix) marathon with lots of beers and a few friends.

You'd be better off trying to smuggle heroin than getting caught taking bananas to Queensland.

I started a similar company where the shipments were all carried inside balloons in the "courier's" gastrointestinal tracts, and for some reason that didn't work out either.

No ones going to want stolen cheeseburgers that have been smuggled in someone else's gastro intestinal tract.

That kind of venture was doomed from the start.

Hah. The name being a bad choice no matter how tongue in cheek it is, is the first thing that came up for me too. I hastily wrote a comment before seeing your top comment brings this up too.

There is no way your company name should be this tongue in cheek about something that can be as serious as international drug smuggling.

At worst they should've got the domain name and made it a marketing landing page for their actual company. Not use Airmule as their actual company name.

I agree completely - I also wonder how long a visible and poorly named company can get away with this since the airlines typically offer "counter-to-counter" freight service that uses their position as a common carrier to shield them from liability.

AirMule is performing an arbitrage since the price difference is making them a profit but the airlines can't be happy about it whether or not the practice has been quietly going along for decades.

The target market might be people who otherwise would never be able to afford the fare, and therefore consider the discount worth the risk. If you don't have the personal wealth to travel, I can imagine that this kind of opportunity would be very attractive.

That's kind of the heart of what's wrong with it. People generally agree, for example, that it was a good thing when we banned the practice of selling ones' self into indentured servitude. It is almost certainly true that indentured servitude was "worth the cost/risk" for some of the people who signed up, but we make it illegal anyway because it sets up a situation where people are likely to be exploited. Same goes for, for example, selling kidneys.

This is the first I heard of such a thing. I honestly can't believe anyone would agree to such a thing.

It used to be very common, but improved routes from FedEx/DHL etc and increased security have ended the business.

https://www.gonomad.com/6364-air-courier-flights-have-lost-t...

http://courierlist.com/ -- which has an announcement from 2005 saying the discounts aren't worth it any more!

Back in the 90s I knew people who would fly back to Japan carrying parcels, in return for reduced tickets (not $99 though, but it might have been £300 instead of £400). I always thought it was kind of sketchy, but as I understand it what was carried were documents, and no one I know ever got into trouble.

When I flew to Amsterdam in 95, guy next to me had a career as a courier for Ford and GM (I flew from Detroit). He mostly brought over specialized tooling parts for engineering depts in US and Europe. Always a carry on he says to prevent theft. He was in his 60's back then but said he's been doing this for a number of years and got to travel the world. I guess these companies still do it.

It happens in the space industry too. I've never seen a dedicated career courier, but rather someone who worked on the project handles it. It's useful when the project is late and the person csn head out for the flight immediately without any shipping company time overhead.

Why not just open the package and inspect it yourself? Then reseal it? It seems like you would get in way less trouble for opening a package given to (and you're not even a common carrier so does the non-opening law apply?) you than getting caught trafficking drugs.

Seriously ... lol. What a BAD name. They should just call it the Escobar Courier Service

If I were to sign up for this I would make it clear that it is not my luggage. In fact it is the first thing I would say to the airport staff: that I'm carrying this package on behalf of this company and everything is supposed to be arranged an in order. If anything is off and airport security would decide to confiscate / disallow the package, that is not my problem. I'd shrug and say "do what you've got to do". It's the Airmule's responsibility to make sure that whatever papers need to be filed are filed.

I think that it can't work like that. Checked bags are tied to your ticket, so you're responsible for them.

>It's the Airmule's responsibility to make sure that whatever papers need to be filed are filed.

As the article says, it doesn't work like that in countries like China (and I suppose it doesn't work like that in many other countries). You're 100% responsible for the package you're carrying unless this happens:

> One of those exceptions is to be the authorized representative of a “common carrier.” These are companies like FedEx, UPS, or DHL, or the airlines themselves

So, as the article says, if someone decides to fill your bag with heroin up to the top Airmule will have nothing to do with it, the death-sentence will be all yours.

> it doesn't work like that in countries like China

It doesn't work also in countries like USA. (I think we agree.)

And it doesn't work in other countries where the security is not so tough like Argentina. [Hi from Argentina!]

It's not exactly the same case, but ... from: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/10/magazine/the-professor-the...

> [...] but when he arrived at the airline counter, he was greeted by several policemen. Asked to identify his luggage — “That’s my bag,” he said, “the other one’s not my bag, but I checked it in” [...]

In fact, it doesn't work like that in any country. For a good reason, when you come to think of it. What you bring in to the country is yours, you can't escape responsibility except by becoming a freight company which is then subject to entirely different responsibilities (and lack of rights).

>> These are companies like FedEx, UPS, or DHL, or the airlines themselves

The question that needs to be asked is "Is Airmule one of these companies, and are Airmule couriers authorized representatives of Airmule?".

The distinction is not that Airmule is a company that provides services in the manner of a common carrier. It's whether they're recognized as such by the government. This is probably done by filing papers in the US and in China. Then they could answer "We are a common carrier, license number XYZ. Users sign form ABC to become an official Airmail representative."

A slightly less important but still relevant question is whether operating a courier service using an airline which itself offers the same service is a violation of the airline's TOS.

The article gives an example of why that wouldn't work either: Certain items (e.g. alcohol) would not be legal for a common carrier to import, but you can take small amounts with you for your own consumption.

If you're planning to trust that strategy with your life, first check with a lawyer to make sure it will actually work. Remember, making an argument about how you think the law should work, and a prediction about how it will work, are two completely different activities that it's very easy to get confused.

if you think about it for 1 sec you will realize why it does not work like that.

You can make whatever you want “clear.” But if it’s on your ticket, it’s your bag.

There are countries that do not care what you think.

In the same fashion they will shrug, say, we don't care, and throw you in jail or take your life away.

Yeah I don't think it's going to down like that. It's still your baggage in a way. You announcing it's not yours before it possibly having illegal things in them isn't likely to magically make security be cool with you and let you off the hook. Chances are pretty good for the opposite.

Chinese people are always taking 1001 gifts back and forth. They will never run out of luggage space.

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