Comment by ashark | Hacker News Reader

Comment by ashark | Hacker News Reader

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Modern construction, even when it uses good materials, is shit-tier, (I think) because labor's so expensive.

For a while we lived in an upper-middle-class house (at the time it was built) constructed around the time of WWI. National historic registry, the whole thing, but little reno or updating. The hardwood floors were intact but in terrible shape. Siding probably needed to be replaced. No air conditioning (Iowa, so summers hot enough for at least a month or so that you really want AC) inadequate gas heating, no insulation, etc. Point being that, even when occupied, the house experienced swings between ~55f in the winter and ~100f in the summer.

The remarkable thing? It had incredible woodwork, just... everywhere. Bannisters, fireplaces, big wooden pillars with accompanying massive trim between rooms, everywhere. The doors were all custom built, paneled, and solid wood—they'd be considered top-end luxury today. It'd cost a fortune in material to do that now, the lumber was so good, but the really crazy part? The intricate joins and such were so tight you couldn't fit a piece of paper between them. I mean perfect, despite ~100 years of temperature swings like that. Good freakin' luck finding anyone who can do that today, and if you manage it, good luck finding enough money to pay them to custom-trim an entire house that way. It'd be off-the-charts expensive.

Indeed. I live in a 1920's built Arts and Crafts style house. We had some carpentry work done a couple of years ago and the chap that did it also happened to specialise in period restoration work for the National Trust. He estimated that it would cost more to replace the downstairs oak paneling and staircase than it would to buy the house and land.

A corollary to the labour cost also seems to be a reduction in high end craft skills. Modern houses don't have the features that require high end skills as they're too expensive so there's less demand for those skills. Another anecdote: it took us ages to find a plasterer who could do the ceiling in one of the bedrooms as the cornering was so complex and most refused to quote. Eventually, one of them put us in contact with a retired gentleman who did the work (at a quite reasonable price considering). Watching him work was amazing.

The only time I recall being more impressed was, many years ago, seeing a spray painter paint a propeller as a template for the robot. It was a bit like watching dancing but to a micron (or so) tolerance. Masterful.

Please could you explain the last paragraph a little more?

Sure. For a while I worked at a company that made props for aircraft and hovercraft. We had a robot arm that painted them. This was about 20 years ago so it was fairly unusual, at least for me as an engineering student.

The problem was that the software for defining the arcs that the paint gun needed to move through was, well, a bit shit. It always produced inconsistent thicknesses.

Obviously, prior to getting the arm, the props were painted by hand. There was this one chap who was just incredible. He'd move his arm in a motion that followed the contours of the prop perfectly but at such a consistent pace that the paint was laid down beautifully. In the end they gave up with the software and just motion captured his arm movements so they could replicate it. It wasn't as good as he was but was close enough.

BTW my job there was to design jigs for a batch of Spitfire blades that they were building. Someone had commissioned new 'planes to go with some Merlins that had been found at Rolls (if I recall correctly). I worked at Dowty who had made the original blades and landing gear so we were making them from the original blueprints. Was a lot of fun.

With changing technology, I think we've actually sorta lost a lot of the early methods of construction. The world's last remaining whaling ship the Charles W Morgan, took 7 months to build in 1841 but 5 years to restore in 2008-2013 using the original shipbuilding tools and techniques (when possible).[1] I just imagine the craftspeople restoring the ship were learning the old techniques for the very first time.

Ironically, she was supposedly built to only last 25 years. That might be just an urban legend tho.

[1] https://www.newbedfordguide.com/charles-w-morgan-whaling-shi...

> The world's last remaining whaling ship the Charles W Morgan, took 7 months to build in 1841 but 5 years to restore in 2008-2013 using the original shipbuilding tools and techniques (when possible).

I'm not sure that's great evidence.

Working with a historical artifact means you have to be more careful - it's more museum curation than construction. It's also generally slower to take something apart and rebuild it than to just put it together the first time.

I don't know if it's true but a guide at the Athens museum told us that it is not possible to match sculptures like Venus de Milo or the Caryatids. I am not sure why though. We are more advanced in everything now, but not in sculpture?

Another factor is the changed support system.

Story is that once upon a time you could sail a ship into Mariahamn in Åland and be able to hire someone for any position from cabin boy to captain. You can't now - those skills are much more diffuse.

Same thing with steam engines. Used to be you could find a boilermaker locally, because the demand was so high. Or farriers, or wheelwrights, or any of a large number of skills related to horse transport.

Even things like home milk delivery and cloth diaper services are harder to get now than in the 1950s, because improvements in pasteurization and disposable diapers have changed the economics.

If you want a new boiler, or want to hire a sailmaker for canvas, or decide you want to keep your own horse&carriage, you'll find it's harder to do so it now than 100 years ago. Not because we've "sorta lost" those skills but because the support infrastructure has dwindled.

For example, the ship the Götheborg is a replica of an 18th-century Swedish East Indiaman. It uses linen sails instead of hemp, as the original would have, because 1) growing hemp was banned in Sweden in the 1970s, and 2) the Hungarian weaving company they were going to use for the hemp sails went out of business in 2000. The linen sails, btw, were made in the UK.

Of course, 200 years ago it would have been much easier to order hemp sails for an East Indiaman.

Last remaining whaling ship? Unfortunately the Japanese whaling factory ships that come done this way are very real.

Oh, I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. I meant the old school, obsolete, 19th century-type "golden age of whaling* ships, certainly not contemporary whaling.

In my mind I (rightly or not?) consider that in a different category altogether.

From what I understand, a good portion of that woodwork was built on-site as well. The fine trim carpentry and plaster work of past eras was unbelievable. In many older houses, a lot of detailed trim was made from plaster. Prior to the specialization of careers in the modern industrial era, many people dedicated their lifetime to learning these skilled trades. Today, those skills are sadly rare.

I really hope that there will be a shift back to supporting these sorts of skilled trades over the next generations. Is it too wishful to think it might happen as "industrial revolution" style jobs continue automating away and perhaps if UBI can provide a basic net? To some extent we're seeing it emerge already with "millennial artisanal X". Besides providing economic opportunities, this sort of work would also help some with the spiritual malaise which will no doubt continue to spread over the next century.

As software engineers we are blessed with the opportunity for depth in craft much more than most workers nowadays, but we still live a fairly nerveless existence, with the tips of our fingers being just about our only meager contact with the world while the rest of our body atrophies.

I've started learning woodworking with old hand tools, but so far it's just made me appreciate more just how skilled these old woodworkers were.

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