Ask HN: Should I buy a boat and live off the grid? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Should I buy a boat and live off the grid?

50 pointsdanieka63 comments

The situation is as follows:

I live in Stockholm but my current lease will run out at the end of August. Now it is entirely possible for me to get a new apartement. But a thought has lodged in my brain that I can not get rid of. I want to buy a boat, find a slip here in Stockholm and live on the boat for the foreseeable future. I'm sure I could handle the practicalities of it. On the pro side is the fact that I want to try to live on a boat (quite small sailboat in this case) and "off the grid". Sure it's a bit romanticised, but isn't your youth the time to make mistakes?

On the con side I'm worried my social life will suffer, I might lose friends. Can't invite people home. People don't want to date a hobo living on a boat?

So my questions is: How severe is the stigma around living on a boat? Does anyone have experience of living in a way that's looked down upon by the rest of society?

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I lived in a van for a year in the bay area. My social life changed for the better. Being more mobile made it easier to visit friends and family in the area.

Dating was fine, it was polarizing in a way. Some girls were immediately turned off - and that was good to know. They are less tolerant of alternative lifestyles and ideas, and so not someone I would want to be friends with anyway. Some girls were totally into it.

There was a lot of mental overhead with living in a van. Where to park, how to work in a shower each day, making sure it's safe and the neighborhood won't be bothered with me staying in the area, etc. It will be different for a boat, since it's legal and you have more facilities available.

My productivity and focus went up at work after I moved back into an apartment. Having a shower and unlimited water & electricity felt incredible. It certainly gave me a new appreciation for modern conveniences.

One side effect of van life that may apply to boat living - you become more in tune with the weather, but less bothered by changes. I'd wake up with the temperature in the mid 40s, and it would be fine. Yes I'd put on a jacket, but I'd go about my morning routine without turning on the heater and be ok with it. I would compare it with being on a ketogenic diet - you still experience hunger, but your response to it is manageable / in your control.

I think experimenting with living off the grid will give you a new appreciation of life and a healthy perspective of what's important to you. For me, once I got the bug to try it, it didn't go away until I made it happen. So if you have a good opportunity to try it out, I'd suggest going for it.

YES, live on a boat (especially if it will save you money, and if you like the water/sea and don't mind the small living space)

1. Live on a boat, (low or no rent)

2. In the meanwhile,

    a. save lots of money!

    b. invite friends/family for excursion/fishing trip/romantic getaway on the sea

    c. enjoy the nature to yourself - instead of living inside a cramped tiny apartments

    d. have fun learning to sail

3. Finally, after money has been saved up,

    a. sell the boat

    b. buy a house with the money saved up

    c. have interesting story to tell your friends/family/kids with your life journey

    d. teach sailing 

    e. learn to appreciate all things in life

+1. This is a delightfully concise version of what my wife and I did.

I've been living aboard a sailboat just outside NYC for about two years now, happy to answer questions.

Addressing a few things:

* buying a boat that is reasonable to live on with less than a month to do so will be difficult. You need to figure out your basic criteria and find a vessel that matches, then get it surveyed by a professional. My boat is 30 years old and was relatively cheap, but it's still a large purchase that you don't want to get screwed on. You may need to sleep on someone's couch for a bit while sorting all this out.

* Boats are depreciating assets, unlike most real estate. Something to consider about buying something that won't impact your quality of life too much.

* Off the grid entirely is difficult, especially from the get go. If you are retired or otherwise able to not worry about being somewhere at a specific time, you may be able to find somewhere to anchor out and take a dinghy in to shore, but I still commute to the office and that sounds like an enormous pain in the ass. I live in a marina, and still connect to shore power to charge my laptop and have WiFi.

* My social life hasn't suffered for the boat, people generally find it an interesting curiosity, even though I gave up a lot of comforts. I don't have a refrigerator, I have an ice box. I don't have air conditioning, I open windows. I can use the head (restroom) aboard the boat, but I usually go to the marina restrooms to avoid having to get the holding tank pumped out. In the middle of winter, having to walk 100ft outside to take a shower before going to work isn't fun.

All that said, it's the cheapest waterfront property I could possibly find in my area, and I wake up every day to a gently rocking bed and usually a nice breeze. It's worth it to me for now.

Thanks for your reply. Luckily in Sweden it's a buyers market for boats right now, and if I don't get cold feet I'm going to look at a boat this weekend. How many feets is your boat?

That's great! Part of the reason I'd say it'll take a bit longer though is if you find a vessel that you're interested in, a thorough survey requires hauling it out of the water to inspect the hull, so scheduling with a yard, the owner, and the surveyor usually takes a bit. In my area the haul out is about $500-800, and the survey was $600 just to see if the boat was worth buying.

My boat is 35.5ft / 10.8m

I'm thinking of buying a boat that's both smaller and cheaper. That way if I regret my decision I can quickly reverse without too much economic damage. If I think it's acceptable to live in really cramped conditions 35ft will seem like heaven.

A boat in saltwater is floating in an evironment that is determined to destroy it. Everything breaks. Bilge pumps die and flood your boat. The toilet reeks because bacteria grow in the copper piping and produce sulfurous gas. Wiring mysteriously shorts when the PVC coating outgasses and cracks and salt air and moisture creeps into the copper strands. Everything is exposed to the sun all day, doubly so because of water's reflections, and the UV destroys everything, too. Be prepared to fix something every week and that the cost of fixing it will be sky-high because you must use marine-grade parts to fix it. When you're not fixing expensive broken shit, you're maintaining it. Constant repainting of surfaces. If your boat has teak, you'll frequently need to strip it and sand it and re-laquer it. Motors die if not used regularly or overheat when the diesel gets old and rots head gasket seals. Fuel leaks. The lines that you use to secure your boat to the dock need constant re-tightening as the tides and waves and wakes toss your boat around. If you forget to tighten them or go on vacation, your boat will come loose and beat itself to death against the dock. If there's a hurricane, the usual course of action is to move your boat out into the harbor and anchor it securely and then ride the storm out somewhere safe.

I love boats but there is a good reason for this joke: "The two happiest days in a man's life: the day he buys a boat and the day he sells it."

There are a bunch of sailing clubs in Stockholm. Before you purchase a boat yourself I'd advise you to join one for a summer. Go sailing, talk to people whos lives revolve around boats. You will get loads of useful advice.

I don't live on a boat myself, but I sail a lot and I know people who do or did live on a boat. In my experience, it's awesome for a few weeks at most (longest period I did was 3 weeks).

First off, it's going to cost a whole lot more than you imagine. I'd say triple your initial cost estimates. Everything on boats break all the time and cost a tonne to repair.

> I'm worried my social life will suffer, I might lose friends. Can't invite people home. People don't want to date a hobo living on a boat?

Your social life will change a lot. Having a friend who lives on a boat is great when it's still new and novel, but soon they become the guy that who's always on a slightly different schedule than everyone else.

The vast majority of women will not be interested in going home with someone who lives on a small sailboat. Some absolutely will, but most really are not interested. You're seen more as that quirky guy who lives on a boat who they can tell their friends about, rather than a potential romantic partner.

So socially, it really depends on you and what you make of it. Some people will think it's really neat that you live on a boat and others will look down on you for it.

I feel like the twin goals of living off the grid and having a social life, though not perfectly orthogonal, might be hard to achieve. In other words, one will probably suffer from the other. That said, if you do decide to buy a boat - get a cool one - then everyone will want to be your friend.

My association with "living off the grid" has always been finding some house in the woods at the end of a very long dirt road. If you're docking a boat in a big city, theres probably tons of people around you - that doesnt really feel like "living off the grid" IMHO

You should just do it - if it's a mistake, it will be really easy to fix.

Can't speak for Sweden, but in London I'm not aware of any stigma around living on boats. A friend of mine at McKinsey, a big management consultancy firm that's as corporate as they come, lived on one and regularly invited colleagues over.

I am seeking out a similar lifestyle - living off-grid and becoming self-sufficient.

You will have to start thinking differently, and the challenges you face will be unique. This new critical thinking may even improve your mental effectiveness at work. It will be like running the small business of taking care of yourself, with many tasks to complete, inventory to monitor, and expenses to pay attention to (few of which will be paid to large companies that provide services to aggregated clusters of people).

The stigma and social isolation you are anticipating will be a good thing. Through your efforts to craft a truly customized lifestyle, you will filter out those who desire dependency on traditional society. The ones that want to spend time with you will be those seeking out a similar change and adventure.

I recently visited several large cities across the US, and I have always lived in a rural setting. This experience made me realize that the founders of places like Rome and the US all went "off-grid" in the sense that they retreated from the crowded, complex societies they were born into and crafted their own life where no one else had ventured.

Personally, I view my off-grid plans as training over the next couple of decades to become an expert at taking care of myself when my body and mind deteriorate and I am no longer useful to society. I think of it as the ultimate retirement plan - gardening, solid health, and home construction as base stats to comfortably live out my final years without a dime spent on hospice.

A subreddit on the subject - https://www.reddit.com/r/liveaboard/

Boats aren't cheap. To buy/refurbish, repair, docking fees, fuel, etc.

I would say living in a vehicle has much more stigma, since that's something typically done out of desperation. And so people doing it voluntary(Van Dwelling, etc) typically attract that stigma(parking, dirty, etc).

Versus living on a boat which is more 'romantic' since it's not really an option or even considered.

You can just build from scratch too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfVWFe-0UxM

> On the con side I'm worried my social life will suffer, I might lose friends. Can't invite people home. People don't want to date a hobo living on a boat?

Non sense. You are going to meet people outside of your usual social circles. Maybe you'll date someone who likes people who lives on boat and that would be cool because you are someone who wants to live on a boat.

Alright as someone who grew up in a wierd situation I'm going to argue against this.

Dating is really hard, anything that makes you weirder and means you'll be around fewer people is probably a bad thing. Plus living on a boat and being near all the salt water probably won't be good for your skin, which will make it all even worse.

this isn't really a weird/normal issue. People have all kinds of likes and ideas and preferences. If you live in an apartment or a tiny house or a detached suburban house with a long commute, you will be the kind of person with those preferences and be more likely to attract people with those preferences, or who are at least open to it.

I'm a transportation cyclist who went car-free while I was single in a car-centric inland US city, where "not having a car" is generally seen as being completely irresponsible, not having your shit together, and not being a serious person. I still dated people with the normal frequency, eventually got married, we now have a one-car household.

If you love your lifestyle, and think it's worth doing, and aren't a huge burden on other people, then other people can appreciate what you see in it too.

I think I see where you are coming from but that's because you actually grew up in a weird situation, right ? It's not the same when you actively choose and prepare for it. Of course I am postulating OP isn't going the hobo full mode.

If you determine the slip fees get too high, make sure you have invested in a really good anchor and chain, according to one person who recently talked about living on a boat for over 5 years in Hawai'i. He stated that those typically included with a vessel are not necessarily adequate.

Maybe you need to do some soul-searching and ask yourself why do you care what everyone else thinks? Do you want to live life your way and for yourself or do you want to live it their way and for them? It's all in what you want and how you set your priorities.

It is sensible to thing the care about what other people think. We live in a society - and there are norms, standards, and values associated with our community. We shouldn't want to be people who can ignore the genuine values of our community. In many ways, I'm just arguing for "love your neighbor" as extending to caring about the values of your community - even when you disagree with them.

I actually had a coworker in the US that bought a boat and lives on it. I get the feeling that his social life is mostly unchanged. Most of us thought it was foolhardy and a little weird, but that was fine. We saw him go through quite a learning curve, one being that he can't live in it during the winter so he has to stay in a hotel. It's also quite expensive to buy and maintain and unlike houses I don't think that the value of boats increase. He's lost some luxuries like TV and wifi. My general feeling is that he probably wouldn't do it again if he could do it over, but he's made it work.

I actually only had to evacuate once when it hit subzero temps! Also would totally do again, maybe with a bit more prep this time

I'd suggest you to try it first, renting someone's boat for a month or so.

I had similar idea and found someone renting boat when interned in San Francisco. but eventually due to other reasons, I didn't take the boat.

at the time, I knew nothing about sailing. then, one of my friends, who is in the Berkeley sailing club, took me to sailing for few times. I started to change my mind.

I can't use a laptop on a boat. it's too shaky even docked. the moisture and the smell of an old boat is also bad.

I predict I can at best live on a boat for a week. plus, there is no shower on the boat.

I'd suggest you try it first before making decision.

There are many people here in Florida that live on boats, some of them go to school or work on temporary contracts then sell the boat when they leave. Some anchor out in the river and so are truly off-grid and pay no rent.

Your entertaining style will have to change, true, especially on a small sailboat. Instead of inviting people over to watch Netflix or whatever, why not invite them out for a sail? (Oh yeah, and keep your living space tidy, no one wants to hang out in someone's moldy cluttered bedroom :) )

As long as you don't overpay for it you can always sell it. My questions:

Are you allowed? How do you shower? What about a kitchen? I assume it has a bathroom? In the winter would it get too cold?

The marina has good facilities and I already eat out for most meals. Re the winter. Uhm. I'm gonna isolate the crap out of the boat and hope for the best. I know of people in Sweden (and event northern Norway) that live on their boat, so I'm hoping it'll be OK.

The sea should keep the temperatures around 0, some heat loss from the wind, but that should be manageable. My experience with the Baltic countries is that the winters are actually rather warm, compared to inland countries where you can have -30 or colder on a bad day.

A quick comment from a 30+-year boat owner: you always overpay. You may think you're getting a deal, but it's never actually true.

This is something I definitely have experience of, albeit perhaps in a different way. Through my own conscious effort, my life is significantly different to that of most others in many ways. Professionally I'm freelance and work comparatively little. I live in a warehouse with 6 others, I built my own bedroom. Both my sexuality and relationship style are outside the norm.

At several junctures I've asked myself the same questions you are asking now.

All of the above changes have caused me to become more distant from many of my older friends. There have been very few (if any) upsets, but certainly paths have diverged. I think this is perfectly ok and I do not see it as a negative.

The flip side of this, is that I have made multiple times more friends as a result of doing something different. It has made my life richer and better in ways I could never have imagined previously.

Also, a friend of mine has a theory wrt dating. It's something like "A lot of people are not into beards, but people who are into beards and REALLY into beards". In your case you can substitute 'beards' for 'people who live on boats'.

Plus, it is perfectly ok to change your mind after trying something for a while. Obvs.

Richard Branson famously lived on a houseboat in the early days of Virgin > https://www.virgin.com/richard-branson/5-places-i-have-worke...

I wasn't aware there was a stigma. It's not like living in a car, since many boats are designed to be long-term habitable. I know someone who does this in San Francisco and he pays $280/month in slip fees, a bit cheaper than rents in the area.

I wonder if you can park a car near the dock with that? Or does this person take Ubers everywhere?

The slip I'm looking at is actually walking distance from my job. So I imagine my day to day life could be quite cosy.

Fwiw I live in sf (in an apt) and between uberpool and transit, it's waayyyy cheaper not to own a car

Yeah, he has a car that he parks at the marina.

Are you really sure you want to live on a boat?

First of all it might be more expensive than an apartment, mooring(slip?) fees are quite expensive.

Second, boat maintanance can be expensive too.

I recently spent a week on a reasonable 50 foot sailboat in a nice Mediterranean location and despite amenities (3 bathrooms for 10 people, nice kitchen etc etc) I was quite happy to get back to sleeping on the ground.

This was with good sailing weather and walking on ground every day.

The pluses for sailing are the community, every port you feel at home. I suppose it is somewhat similar to RV community.

So if sailing is in your blood then go for it

If you are a casual sailor I'd say this is idea will show its negatives soon enough.

I've wanted to buy a boat for the past two years and now that I'm out of my apartement I felt that the moment might be right. I love sailing.

In the UK there's not particularly stigma attached to it, but I would be careful to research the economics of it -- how much a month will you be paying to rent whatever mooring you have, how much (time and money) will upkeep and maintenance of the boat cost you, what's the initial expense of the boat and how much are you losing on a probably-depreciating asset, do you need to pay to dispose of sewerage, and so on... Do the cool things in life, but look carefully before you leap so you know what you're getting into and don't hit a brick wall of disillusionment.

> On the con side I'm worried my social life will suffer

Who doesn't want to hang out on a boat? That seems like a weird concern to me. I can only speak for London but I don't think there's a stigma attached. People are curious and in some ways even a bit envious. Also the boating community (here anyway) is very social (somewhat by necessity).

You should maybe look into some the practicalities before doing anything rash though (hygiene, maintenance, connectivity etc). I found it a little stressful at times but definitely don't regret it.

What kind of boat is it? My family rented a long one once, the kind that you see cruising along (British) canals and honestly, as cute as it is, I felt super claustrophobic.

It can also be very cold.

I've sailed in the past and I'm quite outdoorsy so cold and crampedness really doesn't bother me.

Doing it on a vacation vs living it every single day are two very very different things... I mean, I absolutely love camping and multi-day back country hiking. But I sure wouldn't want to live in the bush 24/7!

Well in that case there is one way to find out :)

The sea is pretty harsh to equipment. I hope you're handy. :)

> Does anyone have experience of living in a way that's looked down upon by the rest of society?

I was homeless once for a time. I used to play in bands. I met some punks I housed up with for a while. It was cramped but it was good times. You'll meet people if you make the effort to.

update: I'd also recommend looking into "off the grid" protocols like scuttlebut ;)

This is not directly answering your final question, but we have a saying in Dutch about owning a boat: "Koop een boot, klus je dood." Translation: it might be easy to buy a boat, but you'll be repairing things till the end. Application: it's expensive to own a boat. Advice: think at least twice.

I'm doing this in Washington DC right now, it's not always easy but worth it! willing to field any questions

That's nice to hear, guess I'm looking for some kind of social validation to quit caring about social validation and actually go ahead and move to the boat :)

How large is your boat? Do you experience problems with heating during winter?

Do it! I have a few friends that have lived on boats before, and it is cool. N.B. you'll need to develop clean habits, and some maintenance skills. Avoid a wooden boat for a first timer that isn't also a master carpenter.

Wrt winter, the one I spent on a boat was the warmest I've ever experienced. It was less hassle to just keep the boat heated than to keep relighting the burner, and also good to keep damp at bay. It's a small space so relatively easy to heat.

I'm on a 27 foot cape dory, a classic sailboat. it's jussssssst barely enough space for myself. I have a Dickinson marine diesel fireplace affixed to a bulkhead for when it gets cold, it'll run for a whole day on one gallon of fuel but makes the boat way too hot if left on constantly.

You might consider renting a liveaboard vessel. That allows you to move-in quickly and to have a low-risk "out" if you decide it's not the right lifestyle for you. Your criteria for what boat to buy, should it come to that, will be much better informed after you've lived afloat for a while.

Living in a boat in a slip isn't exactly "off the grid" Maybe things are different over there, but there are plenty of people who live in a boat over here. Never heard of a stigma against it.

Yes. Next question.

Best answer so far :D

You should, boats are rad. In my experience it won't be as cheap as you think - but it is still awesome!

Do you want to live a "what if" life?

You know what you want to do. So do it and stop asking for permission.

My wife and I lived on a 33" Hunter 336 in Berkeley, California for 2+ years. Our first child was born during that time and lived on the boat until he was 18 months old.

It was a great experience; I'm very happy we did it.

Our boat had some nice amenities which made it a great liveaboard boat: two berths (so our son had his own room), bathroom w/ builtin shower & electric macerating freshwater toilet (which I installed), stove, oven, microwave, electric hot water, fridge, large kitchen sink. We typically would shower on land at the Berkeley Yacht Club which was very close to our slip (the bathroom on the boat doubled as the shower and it was inconvenient to get the bathroom floor wet). A dedicated shower is the only major feature I'd add if I were to live on a boat again.

Social life was different. Our friends seemed less likely to just come over and hang out. But on the other hand, we got to host our friends on sailing trips and give them a very unique experience of the SF Bay. I can't speak to the experience of dating while on a boat, sorry :)

One thing to note: boats do come with a lot of maintenance -- saltwater has a way of destroying everything it touches over time. It was difficult to find people I trusted to come work on the boat without taking the boat to a boat yard (which meant moving out of our home temporarily), so I ended up doing most of the maintenance myself (shout out to my friend Eskil Olsen for selflessly spending his time helping on a handful of occasions!). I would only buy a boat if you are comfortable with learning how to fix it.

Economically we came out solidly ahead. We bought the boat for 39k, put about 13k of work into it (also a ton of my time), then sold the boat for 45k (after brokerage commission). Our monthly fixed expenses were about $500 (water, power, internet, slip fees). Considering a 2 bedroom in Berkeley would run at least ~2k+/month we probably saved ~30-40k over the ~26 months. That said, the time put into maintaining the boat was significant, and if that's not something you would enjoy, it could easily skew the value equation.

The social stigma was very manageable. People would be surprised and maybe slightly weirded-out when I'd first share that I lived on a boat, but as I'd share more I think people caught the vision. I think doing it with my wife helped normalize it. And once people were able to go sailing with us, I think they really got it.

We finally moved on land while pregnant with our second child. My favorite house-amenity is a dishwasher.

Finally, here's the (sold) listing for Chasseresse, the boat we lived on: http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1995/Hunter-336-3037385/Berk...

The sold listing is interesting because of the price on it. I worked for a company that was founded to make electronic nav equipment for sailboat use in 1979, and the 'test bed' cost close to $100K, a 39' Ericson. The listing shows $54K. I checked out comparable Ericson's and they are in the same range.

Final sale price was 50k (& our broker took a 5k commission), so money in our pocket was 45k.

I'm entertaining a similar idea - buying a motorhome. I live in the UK and not only are rents extremely high, but I have no hope in hell of affording even the deposit on a real house so I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place. A motorhome would offer me some nice options - I would own it outright and be able to customise it to my needs. I would get nothing back at the end of a rental contract, whereas should I decide to move out of a motorhome, I could sell it. I would have to sign long-term contracts for utilities and pay daily standing charges just for the privilege of having them routed to my house before I even used them, whereas I could just go buy a gas bottle and not pay any more once it's hooked up.

I could customise the interior of the van as much as I liked - pictures, posters, whatever. Electrical customising is particularly appealing - with all my stuff low-voltage, I could fit some solar panels to the roof, along with some deep-discharge batteries, and totally eliminate my need for mains electricity. Modern motorhomes come with the equivalent of central heating and combi-boilers so they're surprisingly warm and you have on-demand hot water for a shower. I'm sure boats could be the same. With a decent 4G modem and antenna, I might even get good enough internet access.

You say you can't invite people 'home', I disagree - some might share the enjoyment of being on a boat as much as you. Okay, if the boat is far too small, then yes, you do have a space restriction. You're also unlikely to be seen as a hobo, so long as you have a job. Over in the UK, I know a few people who live on houseboats. They're not given a hard time. In conversation, others express appreciation for the idea of living on a boat.

My main concern with the motorhome is sanitation - you'll likely face a similar issue on a boat. Chances are, you won't be able to flush your toilet straight into the river, so you'll end up emptying a chemical toilet on a regular basis. You'll also need to obtain drinking water from somewhere. Mains water and drainage are the major things I would miss. To get access to those, I'd need to look at leasing a pitch on a campsite long-term, although still easier to get out of than a flat rental. The rest of off-grid living is practical - solar electricity for low-voltage lighting, gas or diesel for heating, and the freedom to move away at a moment's notice.

In my mind, living mobile shouldn't be stigmatised. People forget that humans as a species were once highly nomadic. It's only since we invented the concept of land ownership that it's now seen as unacceptable to try to strike out on your own. The others bring up very good points about maintenance on a boat - be prepared for this. If you're going to stick to a river, you'll have freshwater, which ought to be less brutal on the boat than saltwater, but you've still got the other issues to deal with. Water is unstoppable and will get everywhere it can if you let it. Big concern for me with motorhomes is whether they're sufficiently weatherproof. Boats will be worse, but at least with a sailboat you don't have the concern of leaking propeller shafts deep in the hull that you can't get to.

Your best bet will be to take a short holiday on a boat and see how you like it. Some of my relatives did this recently as a family - one of my cousins was indifferent to it, the other fell in love with sailing and now knows what she wants to do with her life.

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