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Comment by virtuabhi | Hacker News Reader

It is so disappointing to see a YC startup directed only to a particular religion. Where I come from (India) there are things like if you belong to religion X then you cannot go to temple of religion Y during prayers, etc. But we regard those policies as regressive and are trying to remove them.

And regarding the idea that Muslims are looking for marriage and not for casual encounters, it is possible to achieve it without focusing on religion aspect. For example, in India websites like shaadi.com (shaadi literally means marriage) are used as dating websites where participants know that they plan to marry in near future.

Also, I would expect VCs with supposedly liberal beliefs to stand for inter-religion marriages as they are much more dangerous (seriously, you can get killed for it) and not for an app "where single muslims meet".

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It's a (large) niche market with specific needs that aren't met by traditional dating sites. Why is building a product to cater to those needs bad or wrong?

If I'm a Muslim and I want to date/marry a Muslim and there are a lot of things I have to solve for as a result of that, it makes a whole lot of sense that technology help me solve for those things.

This maybe your Indian bias showing where communal issues are a little more fiery. Religion based dating/relationship sites are fairly common in America and a lucrative business [1][2]. Not sure why we should suddenly start getting worried just when Muslims build their own as well. Seems like a sound investment from YC's POV.

[1] https://www.christianmingle.com/

[2] https://www.jdate.com/en-us

P.S: I am also Indian.

In France where I live, I suspect such community-based dating apps would be frowned upon and seen as close-minded. Most people I know see religion as something people slowly liberate themselves from and not as a silo inside which you get married while keeping people from other faiths outside of your life.

But I also understand this is a cultural difference with America, and I'm curious to read views from other people around the world in this thread.

EDIT: not sure why I'm being downvoted, I'm trying to give a perspective from a different part of the world which I think is relevant to how such an app might be perceived there. I'm not trying to insult anyone.

I think you are wrong, as a quick Google search will reveal instantly:

Muslim: https://www.islamunion.fr/ http://www.meetarabic.com/ https://www.mektoube.fr/

Catholic: http://www.theotokos.fr/ http://www.notre-dame-des-rencontres.com/ https://www.iktoos.com/

Jewish: https://www.jdream.fr/ http://www.e-mazal.com/ http://j-link.fr/

Point taken. I still think many people here would frown upon such websites, but maybe it's also a matter of my living in an echo chamber of atheist and internationalist liberals :-)

I'd be curious to know what percentage of French people are strictly looking for a partner inside their religious or ethnic community compared to other countries.

> Most people I know see religion as something people slowly liberate themselves from and not as a silo

As a French living in Paris coming from a Muslim family I think ironically you may be the one living in a silo. Most French Muslims do not agree at all with "religion as something people slowly liberate themselves from", this may be common among your mostly white liberal friends I suppose but it is _not_ the case for Muslims. Also, as have been pointed out, there are plenty of Jewish, Muslims and Catholics dating apps in France.

Yes, I admitted as much in my other comment (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14921916). Out of curiosity, do you think this has always been the case or is it a more recent trend?

Are there dating apps based around other hobbies, or is it just religion?

There is even https://www.farmersonly.com/

I keep seeing ads for a "date a surfer" website.

Clearly google knows I surf, but doesn't know I'm married...or maybe it does...

I'm American and see those sites as equally regressive.

> Where I come from (India) there are things like if you belong to religion X then you cannot go to temple of religion Y during prayers, etc

I don't see what's the problem. It makes perfect sense to me

Temples of any religion are usually not public grounds and can enforce visitation rules.

And... we are back to what people can or cannot do arguments.

If things are illegal they can typically get shut down directly. They don't need to be 'frowned' upon. Things being frowned upon shows a cultural preference or development.

>"Temples of any religion are usually not public grounds and can enforce visitation rules."

This is patently untrue. I'm not sure where you are getting that from. I'm neither Muslim, nor Hindu, nor Sikh, nor Buddhist nor Shinto and I have been welcomed into everyone of those great religion's temples in many different countries throughout the world. They are very much public places.

There are different interpretations of the word "public". The parent I think uses it as a legal term, i.e., deviations can be reported to and handled by law enforcement: e.g., in the US one can photograph anything and anyone on a public street, but usually cannot walk there naked. This is the definition I personally use, too.

The meaning you seem to be using the term to mean welcoming everyone by choice of the owner (e.g., "everyone can come to my restaurant"). However, in this case the owner can also impose their own visitation rules (e.g., prohibiting a dress type that is offensive to one group but perfectly acceptable to another).

I think what riverbashing was saying was that if a particular temple wanted to restricted access it could.

I think that here in the US a church/etc can do the same thing using a 'private property' law of some sort. Something to the effect of "It's our private property and we don't want <whomever> here"

That said, most religious groups that I've seen (in the US) try to welcome potential new members and have (like you said) welcomed visitors as well.

I see, I hadn't considered the legal context of the term public in the OPs statement simply because they are such communal places. But yes that makes sense.

Shaadi.com owns a number of related websites targeted at particular Indian communities. I live in Kolkata and ads for bengalimatrimony.com are everywhere (in a manner of speaking).

Completely agree. But imagine a YC funded startup where single people of Brahmin caste meet. I can understand local people developing apps like that but not a well-respected, liberal, California-based VC firm.

why do you assume YC is liberal as in freedom of speech?

I've only see clear indication that they are liberal as in less government control.

> But imagine a YC funded startup where single people of Brahmin caste meet. I can understand local people developing apps like that but not a well-respected, liberal, California-based VC firm.

YC is about innovation. Hundreds of start ups make it to YC, I don't see why an app for Brahmin singles to mingle is inherently not worthy of YC.

Instead of speaking in riddles why don't you just say plainly what you are thinking.

> Where I come from (India) there are things like if you belong to religion X then you cannot go to temple of religion Y during prayers, etc

Those policies exist all across the US and Europe as well, as well as the rest of the world. It's not limited to India.

Eh, there's J-Date and Christian Mingle (also e-Harmony tends to be pretty christian).

It is just yet another service catered towards certain individuals. The exclusivity might make it more interesting.

Relax, it's just market segmentation and better-focused customer acquisition.

Yeah, imagine a headline "YC-backed Splinder is dating app only for white people".

I bet people would not be that relaxed. #justsayin'

Islam isn't a race. Anyone under the sun could become a Muslim and use this service. People can't however change their race (who would've thought?). I've never been so perplexed by a comment on this site in my life.

I suspect the most common comment on HN would be asking what Splinder plans to offer to differentiate itself from Where White People Meet, the startup in that space that got media attention last year.

That's already how many users of existing dating sites actually use them in reality. So, the existence of such a thing would not surprise me, nor would YC investing in it... (they're capitalists, not superheroes)

Seriously. I live in a city that is comprised of 50% white people. The vast majority of women's profiles exclusively say they want a white guy (source: me using Match). And when I use other apps, I get recommended matches (source: me using CoffeeMeetsBagel), they only recommend me women of my own ethnicity despite me never had explicitly suggested I cared about ethnicity.

FWIW, I'm not suggesting people shouldn't have preferences, but for a lot of apps and depending on your gender/ethnic composition, the inclusion of other ethnicities doesn't really mean you are exactly on a level playing field.

OKCupid's blog has a series of interesting (and depressing) write-ups about this.

@angersock not sure that suggesting an internet stranger -- to 'relax' right at the start of the feedback, is a respectful way engage in constructive conversation.

Islam forbids Muslim women from courting non-Muslim men. That is presumably one of the motivations behind this service. https://islamqa.info/en/21380

Perhaps true (likely - but I am not completely familiar with that religion); but doesn't this make the assumption that if you are Muslim, you are automatically Islamic?

Yeah, I know that's how it's kinda played out (much like how the BKDs here in America insist we are a "Christian Nation" - despite things like the Treaty of Tripoli and other documents to the contrary) - but that doesn't make it objectively true.

Of course, in some cases (even here in the west), if you dare mention such a thing within 'the faith' - you could find yourself on the other side of an honor killing by your own family (especially if you are a woman; such enlightenment).

To think, this is the exact same place many evangelical Christians want to take our nation too as well. Lovely.

Agreed. Frankly I should think that many Muslims would find this entire notion offensive. Just because someone is Muslim doesn't mean they (a) necessarily want to find a muslim partner (b) have family with backward and regressive views (c) live in a society with backward and regressive views (d) want to support the continuation of backward and regressive views

IMHO in many traditional societies young people want to shake off the controlling habits of former generations and such an app would actually be a concrete step backwards.

(Full disclosure: My wife is Chinese muslim, and we have muslim friends in Australia, India, Indonesia, Thailand, Tunisia, UK, etc. I am personally irreligious.)

And on the other hand I know plenty of people who would love something like this. Different strokes for different folks.

> (b) have family with backward and regressive views (c) live in a society with backward and regressive views (d) want to support the continuation of backward and regressive views

Wait, what are you implying here? A dating site exclusive to Muslims isn't suggestive of B, C or D. There are dating sites exclusive to African Americans for example, are they backwards and regressive too?

A dating site exclusive to Muslims isn't suggestive of B, C or D

Sure, but the features listed elsewhere in this thread that they've chosen to implement are.

What features are you referring to specifically?

Not defending the words of the poster you are quoting but African American is a race not a religion/belief system.

Dating app for Mormons or Atheists would be a more appropriate analogy.

All identities are beliefs, as are all concepts of race; an identity tied to a concept of race is absolutely a belief system.

> Dating app for Mormons or Atheists would be a more appropriate analogy.

Of course, both of those exist, too.

Babies are not born with beliefs they can't change. But they are born with a race they can't change.

It's not the same.

Races aren't objective facts of biology they are mutable social constructs (both in terms of identity and ascribed status.)

It's true that you can't directly control (though you can influence)) ascribed racial status (the rest of society collectively does that) but, that's true of all ascribed statuses (including ascribed religion, though that's often not significant in modern Western societies.)

TIL being Chinese isn't an objective fact it's something you can stop being true if raised in the right society.

By this logic white people raised in certain parts of America are African Americans.

> Frankly I should think that many Muslims would find this entire notion offensive.

Many people find anything offensive, but I don't see any particularly good reason to think there is anything particularly deserving of it in this concept.

> Just because someone is Muslim doesn't mean they (a) necessarily want to find a muslim partner

I would think that even Muslims who do not want exclusively to find a Muslim partner would recognize that there are Muslims who do wish that.

> IMHO in many traditional societies young people want to shake off the controlling habits of former generations and such an app would actually be a concrete step backwards.

Allowing people who don't share their open attitude toward dating he opportunity to have a dating forum that supports their preferences does not prevent those with open attitudes from pursuing more open venues, which are not in short supply.

Christian Mingle doesn't stop Christians that whose dating interested isn't religiously restrictive from using any of the vast area of open-preference dating apps in the universe, the Muslim equivalent would be no different in that regard.

>"Many people find anything offensive, but I don't see any particularly good reason to think there is anything particularly deserving of it in this concept."

Except that arranged marriage is still common in Muslim society. See the section: "Islamic dating practices and community programs":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_marital_practices

and see:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=9568360...

> Except that arranged marriage is still common in Muslim society.

I fail to see how the fact that arranged marriage remains common in Muslim society is germane to the point that sentence is offered in response to or even the wider discussion of this app, except insofar as both arranged marriages and the existing structures which support it are an incumbent factor which any dating app targeting that population necessarily must contend with.

It was in response to the statement that:

>".. don't see any particularly good reason to think there is anything particularly deserving of it in this concept."

Using a dating app to find spouse would likely to be seen as offensive by families that believe in arranged marriages.

Did I misunderstand the comment?

> Just because someone is Muslim doesn't mean they (a) necessarily want to find a muslim partner

I thought the religion required it? What is a "muslim" in this case?

I don't believe there is anything in the in the religion that requires it and that interfaith unions are acceptable provided they are between Ahl al-Kitab("People of the Book) - Jews, Christian and Zoroastrians.

This is actually correct. But where I come from, this is frowned upon. The real problem is not the religious doctrine, but the practical problem of resolving cultural conflicts between the families.

What is the standard for deciding if something is "in the religion"? Can a Muslim woman marry a Christian man?

By "in the religion" I meant put forth in the Quran.

I don't believe its reciprocal in that a Muslim woman a may not marry a Christian man unless he converts.

See: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Ahl-al-Kitab

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