Comment by javajosh | Hacker News Reader

Comment by javajosh | Hacker News Reader

It is outrageous, but it's not new. About 2 years ago I sold an item through the marketplace, shipped through Amazon, and at +30 days the buyer requested to return (my return policy stated no returns after 30 days). I ignored him, and then he filed a "Did not receive item" complaint with Amazon. They refunded him $250 and billed me $250. I fought it, using email, multiple phone calls (a trial in and of itself), showing them their own records of shipment, etc, the fact that the buyer had initially tried to return the item (and had sent messages to me saying he wanted to return it - implying that he had it).

I haven't used Amazon to buy or sell anything since. And you know what? It's great! I use Discogs (and my local music store!) for music, Alibris (alas, no good local book stores remain) for books, Newegg for electronics. I haven't yet found a great source for ordinary household goods online, but the local Home Depot/Costco/Target have me covered. When they get drone delivery and a good online experience, I'll be stoked.

In truth, I don't think Amazon can really compete within these niches. They get away with it because of an incredible focus on reducing transaction friction, and because they are usually "good enough" in so many categories. My worry is that Amazon will expand their monopoly, and then really start abusing it's customers, and they won't have anywhere to go.

I guess I'm just saying don't wait for them to try and screw you out of $250, give up Amazon for a month, and see how it goes! I think you'll be surprised.

>"About 2 years ago I sold an item through the marketplace, shipped through Amazon, and at 30 days the buyer requested to return. I ignored him, and then... (blah blah blah) I haven't used Amazon to buy or sell anything since"

So it sounds like buying on Amazon is great way to avoid merchants who ignore support requests. Thanks for the info.

There was nothing illegal or immoral about ignoring a request I wasn't going to accept. It was after 30 days and his window for returning had closed.

Certainly I wouldn't do business with someone like you who feels that fraud is justified when some arbitrary condition you place on the other party isn't satisfied to your liking.

>"someone like you who feels that fraud is justified"

This is completely unjustified and against site guidelines.

Of course fraud isn't justified (which FWIW xiaoma in no way claimed), but if you completely ignore a request, it's not really a surprise if people go over your head and contact Amazon. "I requested a return and seller is ignoring me" may well end up with Amazon issuing a refund regardless of what your return policies say, whereas just responding with your policy details may well end the matter there (assuming the buyer isn't fraudulent).

I had something vaguely similar with Play-Asia about a year ago. Part of an order arrived damaged, and after three weeks of back-and-forth with support was no closer to receiving a replacement item or refund. I ended up filing a PayPal complaint (specifying that only part of the order was in dispute, and that I was only seeking a refund on a single item), but Play-Asia completely ignored this -- PayPal issued a refund on the entire order as a result.

BTW, why did the buyer wish to return the item? If the item had developed a fault, I'm not sure his claim of "Item not received" is _wholly_ unjustified.

Amazon's policy says you have to respond to buyer's inquiries within 24 hours. You literary had to just reply "Sorry my return policy is 30 days and it's been 40 days." One single sentence and you probably could have avoided the return completely. You could do that in bed. What did you think would happen if you ignored the buyer? Of course they are going to complain to Amazon.

>Certainly I wouldn't do business with someone like you who feels that fraud is justified when some arbitrary condition you place on the other party isn't satisfied to your liking.

Read the comment you are replying to, it does not say that and it does not imply that.

Yes, he did. His response to me getting defrauded out of $250 was essentially, "Amazon did right. You deserved to be defrauded by them for not responding to a support request. I am happy they alienated you enough to get you off of their platform, because I wouldn't want to do business with bad people like you anyway." I'm exaggerating for clarity, but that's how I read his comment.

This pisses me off because it obscures the simple fact that Amazon had all the information it needed to see that he had actually received the item, but considered it "not delivered" anyway. It was fraud on the buyers part, theft and stupidity on Amazon's part for not seeing it, and it's emminently stupid for some random on the internet to say that ignoring an invalid return request deserved this response.

Again, this is not the case. Reread my comment. I didn't write anything at all from the perspective of you, the merchant.

As a customer, I love dealing with Amazon. This doesn't mean that I'd enjoy being their partner, supplier, employee or anybody else they deal with.

The big internet platforms are very customer friendly and increasingly seller hostile. It is the same thing with PayPal/Ebay for example. I have no problem buying on Amazon or via PayPal, but I would never sell through them.

eBay is pretty scary as a seller, I have to admit. The high volume people take it and chalk it up to the cost of doing business; unlucky individuals can get really, really hurt if they run into an unscrupulous buyer.

I worked for BrickLink for a time (a niche online marketplace for adult Lego fans) and I was surprised at how smoothly that place ran, which is actually a big reason to prefer niche marketplaces if they exist. Community, and reputation, means something there, whereas with the huge world-spanning monster markets you're just another face in the crowd, which is great news for criminals who know that police can't and won't pursue online property crime.

I'm curious why you ignored the return request. Was the nature of the product one that made you suspicious of fraud?

It was after 30 days, and my refund policy was "no returns after 30 days". I probably should have sent a message back, but I was a little lazy. While I may have made a customer service error, I don't think I was actually breaking the law, or any part of the customer agreement by doing this.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=hel...

> Our research shows that orders with messages responded to within 24 hours receive 50% less negative feedback compared to orders with messages responded to after more than 24 hours... Timely, high-quality responses to customer inquiries are an important factor in customer satisfaction and can help prevent negative feedback or other order defects and claims. While scores that do not meet our standards generally do not result in the suspension of your selling privileges, slow response times can lead to negative feedback and claims, which can impact your selling privileges.

On the subject of amazon alternatives, when I'm buying new books I check bookdepository.com (free international shipping!), wordery.com (free international shipping!) and booksplea.se (free international shipping!) first.

They don't have the range of books that amazon does, but they beat amazon on price often enough to make them worth checking (and every so often, they really undercut amazon).

Amazon own Book Depository.

I recently had a run-in with their support department when they shipped me a book that was a) a photocopy of the original b) with a damaged cover.

They were not willing to take any responsibility for this and made it very clear that they did not want to replace it.

So I've soured on them.

They do indeed own BookDepository. I'm sure they've got a good reason for competing with themselves at lower prices and free shipping; I'm happy just to benefit. I suppose part of how BookDepository do it is by inferior customer service; if that was bought from Amazon, I expect they'd have taken it back without question.

Pirate books supplied by reputable online retailers certainly has been on the rise. No Starch suffered it recently. It does seem to be technical books more than others, although I'm surprised it was a photocopy; usually it's just a reprint of the PDF version.

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