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Comment by aphextron | Hacker News Reader

What is it with first-world vegans/vegetarians wanting to eat these extremely processed imitation meat frozen foods? There is an entire tradition of vegetarian cuisine around the world from Rasta Ital, to Hindu Sattvic, Afghani, and Thai which you could learn with just a tiny bit of effort.

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I think the goal is more to transition omnivores away from meat. There is a consensus that the meat industry in unsustainable as is. But, there is also a strong belief that trying to convince the world they don't want meat via rational arguments is futile. Thus, we need work-arounds via either plants that mimic meat or changing the meat industry over to vat-brewed meat.

> trying to convince the world they don't want meat via rational arguments is futile

Of course it is, because it should be pretty obvious that they do want meat. If they didn't want meat you wouldn't be having the argument in the first place, right?

I've never tried a real honest to god direct replacement for meat that I actually was fooled -- even for a moment -- into thinking might actually be meat. I've had some delicious vegetarian dishes, I've had some delicious vegan dishes, but those things definitely just aren't the same experience as eating meat. Tofurkey just don't cut it.

Which isn't to say that I'm not open to the idea of having a 1:1 lab-made replacement for meat that is indistinguishable from the real thing. I most definitely am. If you could provide me with lab-meat at even just a small premium I'd probably go vegetarian where that option was available.

But boy do I love me some meat-or-indistinguishable-from-meat products in my meals.

> Which isn't to say that I'm not open to the idea of having a 1:1 lab-made replacement for meat that is indistinguishable from the real thing. I most definitely am. If you could provide me with lab-meat at even just a small premium I'd probably go vegetarian where that option was available.

Question: does that count as going vegetarian? To me that's just going techno-carnivore.

Depends why you're asking. http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/21/the-categories-were-mad...

An important component of the pitch to omnivores is price. If the price is low enough, it becomes an easier sell.

But very often the prices on these vegetarian meat substitute products is the same or higher than the comparable meat product. I think that's because the food system, and various subsidies to "big meat", make meat unnaturally cheap.

That, and economy of scale. Were omnivores less that 5% of the population, no doubt we'd see higher prices there too.

Mimicking is exactly how you get omnivores to not try your product.

You'd like me to try vegan food? Make real vegan cuisine with its own flavors and consistency. Don't try to make fake meat, I won't eat vegan to taste something meat-like. I'll eat it for good tasting vegetables and fruits.

Different subgroups. Replacement products are interesting for omnivores that want to get rid of meat in their diet. Omnivores that intend to remain such don't really care.

Hey, I like vegan food a lot, but it's not like "extremely processed imitation meat" foods haven't been part of vegan culture for a long time. Go to a tofu restaurant in Japan and take a look at what they do to yuba. As for the frozen part, vegans have traditionally had to cook virtually everything they ate in the first world. There has not historically been a lot of convenience food. The last 20 years or so, it's grown a lot, but it is still dwarfed by the more traditional convenience food. Especially in big cities in the west, if I want a prepared vegan take-away, then it is usually a million times better to get one from one of the tiny restaurants that are the advantage of having nice multi-cultural societies.

But there is one last reason for the "I can't believe it's not a dead animal!"-burger/dog: Culturually, people invite you to barbeques. If you show up with your Shoujin ryouri bentou, people look down on you and tell you that you're stuck up. If you show up with an eggplant and a hot dog bun, they won't call you stuck up, but they will reasonably say, "You're really going to grill an eggplant and stick it in a hotdog bun? That's why vegan food is so sad". (BTW, that actually sounds good to me :-) ).

Yes, vegans want to go to barbeques and fit in and not have to explain why they decided not to eat meat. Sometimes they just want a normal western cultural experience without having to compromise on their principles. Sometimes they grew up with this kind of food and they are feeling nostalgic. There are huge numbers of reasons why people do these kinds of things and why it is a big deal to them.

And yes, they should learn about cuisines that are culturally vegetarian for many, many reasons as well. Most do even if they also eat processed vegetable protein in a package.

Appreciate how you illustrate the different aspects. I can take being the odd one out every now and then as a vegan. I'm aware that my choice places me in an odd spot from time to time. But it can be so good to not stick out sometimes. Whether it is that you have nice convenience food that can be handled just like the original or a taste that you thought you had given up or a social event where your food doesn't even register as weird.

And I believe these imitations really do help a lot of people make the transition either away from meat or towards less meat. Which I see as a good thing.

As a vegetarian who regularly makes curries from scratch, from soaking the lentils to grinding my own spices from whole seeds/pods and grilling paneer in tandoori paste, I can say it doesn't hurt to have the option when you've feel like having a burger, and it's a good way for people who want to make the switch to vegetarianism to know that their favourite junk foods are still an option.

Why do you soak the lentils?

Dried lentils need some time to absorb water.

Soaking lentils (and other legumes like chickpeas) cuts cooking time by about half.

It's even more important for legumes and other foods because it removes phytic acid (one of the things that prevents absorption of nutrients/minerals) and makes it easier to digest. It's similar with nuts too. They all become nutritionally more accessible (and "richer") when soaked and the soaking water is later thrown out (before cooking).

I love meat. Especially fried chicken. I was raised on it. But I only eat in in the condition someone else is throwing away scraps. Its a moral thing. Cant I be vegetarian for moral choices without acting like I'm above the taste of meat?

My wife is coming around too and you know what? Foods like this are the gateway drug for those of us born and raised on meat to change our ways (should you want to... if you want to continue to eat meat that is your path in life to take!)

There's room for both. The vast majority of my meals are from Indian, Mexican, Thai, etc. recipes but occasionally I get the craving for a good burger. I've had some pretty good and a lot of not so good veggie patties, and although I'd only envision myself eating one of these every few months, I'm still excited to see what they came up with.

Edit: To note that I've only been a vegetarian for about 8 years (or around a 20-25% of my life), so definitely get the occasional craving for foods I used to enjoy in the past.

People enjoy eating certain foods. Having options that allow you to replicate a certain taste without having to kill something is desirable to people who have gone veg.

There's also the aspects of food as a culture or social participation. People want to be able to participate in things like BBQs or eat out at restaurants with friends.

>without having to kill something

I think even vegans/vegetarians have to acknowledge they are killing plants to eat. I suspect the better for environment/health argument is more prevalent (why I eat little meat).

At some point somethings going to have to die to feed yourself (until we can gene edit photosynthesis into humans..). I take some consolation that I'll be feeding bacteria when I'm gone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inedia

Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruitarianism

For many people there is an ethical difference between killing animals and killing plants. Most of my vegetarian/vegan friends actually abstain from meat because they don't want to be responsible for the killing of animals, not because of environmental or health concerns (though they acknowledge the added bonus)

Do you think killing an animal is the same as killing a plant? I've never met a someone who felt that way. I don't think it's common whatsoever, especially among vegetarians.

I'm not going to go that far, to equate plants and animals. The original comment said "without killing something".

so I wondered why it's a no brainer that plants are ethically ok to kill and eat but species closer to us aren't.

Anyone who's dealt with animals or pets sees intelligence and Personality. So it's easy to have empathy and want to let them live (especially if they're cute and docile). Nobody likes killing animals if unnecessary (for the most part, I never understood hunting for sport). Factory farming doesn't leave a pleasant feeling either.

But there is a trend of getting protein from bugs.. and I'm wondering were that fits into people's thinking.

It's more of a thought experiment than anything.

Idle thoughts from a species on top of the food chain with ample calories available that is the steward of the planet (and not doing too well)

It takes way more plants to raise animals for our consumption than to just eat the plants directly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trophic_level#Biomass_transfer...

Is this rhetorical or are you actually wondering why someone would want meatless substitutes for foods that they (used to) enjoy?

I'm not sure that the real target is vegans/vegetarians. I don't eat, nor desire, that many of these substitutes and neither do the friends I've had for 20+ years of this diet. I believe these products are more for people who aren't committed to making a full lifestyle change, but just want to have 'meatless Mondays' or the like.

I've learned that Chinese vegetarians also want to eat them, and mock meats are quite a staple of a lot of Chinese vegetarian cooking. (But indeed not of the other cuisines that you mention.)

Generally I prefer meals that are naturally vegan. In certain social situations these types of substitutes are helpful. Additionally, if it allows for more "meatless Monday's" or lowers the bar to eat more vegan, I'm all for it!

This is actually for meat eaters.

Indian vegetarian food is great (I'm Indian). But its biggest problem is the lack of any "solid" food or texture (which is why you see raw onion on every Indian dinner plate - to give the necessary crunch to dal-rice).

It's not a first world phenomenon alone. For most people around the world, the food they've grown up with is almost part of their identity and also a comfort factor. It's one reason why many people have real struggles, with themselves, when wanting to change their food habits and give up what they're used to. One might argue that people being stuck to certain things sounds silly, but it's the reality around. To have large scale change, we need such alternatives.

why does anyone want to try new foods... to try new foods and to have diversity of options.

That's a great suggestion, and what I do as a vegan (mostly I eat beans and rice). But I believe things like this are developed in response to current cuisine, e.g. meat burgers. That people don't want to give up that taste and want a way to maintain their current desires for taste. I admit that I still enjoy e.g. a Beyond Burger occasionally for that reason.

I do eat some of these foods. And foods from elsewhere. the truth is this: Sometimes I want a different texture. Or something my mother made growing up. It already takes a bit of doing (immigrant, so different ingredients). Artificial meat helps me make the texture more similar to what I remember.

Also, more options for variety and stuff.

For the same reason people eat processed meat: taste. If processing plants can make them taste better for some people, then what's the big deal? It looks like you are trying to associate processed foods with "first world vegans/vegetarians".

Not everyone has the time or interest. I'd rather go out than cook a meal.

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