Tesla Model 3 Delivery Event Livestream | Hacker News Reader

Tesla Model 3 Delivery Event Livestream

livestream.tesla.com

81 pointsslg76 comments

Well that was an underwhelming presentation. The only real new information was general details about the two versions of the 3.

The lower capacity one will start at $35k, have 220 mile range, 5.6 sec 0-60 time, and 130 mph top speed.

The higher capacity one will start at $44k, have 310 mile range, 5.1 sec 0-60 time, and 140 mph top speed.

EDIT: For comparison the Chevy Bolt starts at $37,495, has 238 mile range, 6.3 sec 0-60 time, and 91 mph top speed.

3x the Super Chargers, as well.

Bolt inventory is pretty high - so you can have one right away, if that's what you want.

Yup. That may be a smarter move in the U.S. right now because you should still get the $7,500 federal tax incentive, whereas if you order Model 3 today, there will have been >200,000 sold by the time you receive with lessens or removes the incentive.

The credit isn't removed immediately when they hit that number, but stopped in that /quarter/, then gradually reduced. So if they play games with delivery dates, they can maximize how many people can get the credit.

After one quarter after I think.

Ya but then you have to drive a Bolt

So many people hoping for some juicy unveiled features...nope. Perhaps what we see is what we get.

That's what Tesla has been saying for a while.

I was talking with a person who works at Tesla tonight during the stream, and he repeatedly said (paraphrasing):

"This is why we've been anti-selling, people keep running away with the hype and assuming things like HUD or autonomous charging is coming with the 3. People were convincing themselves Tesla was going to release a more advanced S for a third of the price, which is plainly a silly expectation."

Above 300 mile range is a pretty juicy feature. As is AWD which is planned for the spring.

Actual information is on this page: https://www.tesla.com/support/model-3-reservations-faq

Looks like the first production cars will start at $49k, with no $35k cars available until November.

And here is a "first drive" review of the car.

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2018/exclusive-...

Why'd they have to make the front look like the GM EV1? That looks like ass.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

Not sure what similarities you found in these two cars. For me model 3 looks amazing considering its price category, both interior and exterior. Chevy bolt looks like a cheap Chinese toy compared to model 3 in my opinion.

Probably, the made the Model 3 uglier on purpose, to differentiate from the luxury Model S. Buy yeah I agree there is no motor in front, so they had all freedom to come up with some nice design... the front portion could look a lot better, and the interior is very essential, like a 1980s asian car with an Android tablet taped on, if you ask me.

Why was this underwhelming ? Elon unveiled the most important aspects - speed, range, safety, price and the range anxiety question - how many superchargers. I agree that his delivery style is underwhelming and there's a lot of debate about that. I am personally fine with an underwhelming presentation and an overwhelming product.

There were two big things missing for me that I was hoping to get tonight. First was delivery estimates. They have given general production numbers and rough estimates on when you receive the car if you order today, but existing reservation holders have no idea when they will have the option to purchase and/or receive the car or even the expected lead time between purchasing and delivery. Second thing missing for me was an idea of options for the car. There is still no real information on what options will be available for the car, when they will be available, and what they will cost.

These two issues mean there is still very little information for reservation holders. There seems to be a window of about $15k and 6 months for the cost and potential delivery date of the car.

One the livestream site is done and MyTesla is back online, reservation holders should be able to get an estimate from the MyTesla site. Source: https://www.tesla.com/support/model-3-reservations-faq

That is good to hear. I wonder why they didn't mention that (or most of the information on the FAQ) during the actual stream.

But the Chevy bolt looks terrible. No brainer.

130 mph top speed for the base model. Weight: 3549 lb. 220 mile range.

The design mission of this car is very conservative: freeway travel at 70-80 mph, for several hours, with 4 people and their luggage. The payload (I'll guess 900lb) is similar to what you'd need in a Toyota or Mercedes.

However, this is lousy for urban vehicles/pedestrians/congestion. For example, in San Francisco, I need a 50 mph vehicle that can carry 2 people. And at 50 mph, I can drive to Palo Alto in less than an hour.

Could Tesla give me a 1000lb/50mph vehicle? I bet SpaceX could.

At least Motor Trend did really like the Model 3's handling: http://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2018/exclusive-...

I'm sure spaceX could, or telsa, or any other car manufacturer. Problem is car owners have ever higher standards. They want stereos that are better than their home system (100s of watts and a dozen speakers), elaborate dual zone heating cooling systems, phone chargers, dozens or so airbags, power seats, power windows, power outlets, usb ports, tv's for entertaining the kids, etc.

Motor trend or similar magazine ran a 50 year anniversary issue including the car weight of every car they reviewed in the last 50 years. The average went from under 2000 to almost 4000. I suspect the toughest design criteria is letting a human survive a crash with a 6000 pound SUV.

Sadly the low cost of oil has resulted in the huge SUVs being still quite popular.

If you want an under 1000 pounds vehicle that can carry 2 people get an electric motorcycle.

Am I the only person in the world who thinks that having a touch screen as the primary interface in a car is a horrible idea? Why is it illegal to mess with our phones while driving but it's ok if it's a built-in touch screen?

I thought they did it as a temporary thing, didn't realize it was going to production.

One consideration in the law's distinction might be that the driver features on touch screens are designed to reduce required attention (or at least consider it during design), while typing a text requires a lot of effort and distraction because phone UX can assume your focus. Touch doesn't really matter, though; you can get similar distraction manipulating even a relatively simple radio, and people do hurt themselves playing with the radio.

There is also a front passenger to consider, though I do concede that point when alone.

> you can get similar distraction manipulating a radio.

You can manipulate a radio without looking at it. You can't do the same with a touchscreen. There are laws against texting and driving for a reason.

It's been many years since I've met a glance-free radio. Even the barebones tape deck package usually has source buttons, you have to glance if you're looking for a station, you invoke the part of your brain to remember the frequency of the station you like or was it preset 6, etc etc. If you're just seeking from steering wheel buttons, sure, but then you also have a timing distraction to push the button to stop and oh crap I missed it and now I have to tune back. And tuning toward a specific destination with the Tune buttons (tap-tap-tap-tap or tap-hold-miss-static-tap-tap with many glances thrown in) is about as distracting as texting, I'd wager.

There's a lot of "higher order" and potentially distracting UX in manipulating a radio, versus a hot/cold switch. I don't think touch screens add much; I honestly think the control rearrangement capability actually improves UX for distraction purposes, like directly tapping a visual logo, for example, which is a lot faster to recognize than a frequency or channel number or dragging a virtual "tuner" along the "spectrum" with a Tune+ button.

I've yet to meet a non-glance-free radio. Then again, the latest car I've ever owned is from 2003. I can believe tactile buttons went the way of the dinosaur about the time the iPhone was created (2008?)

There's more to what I'm saying than the buttons. I am actually alleging that yours is more distracting than you think with the input technology being a minor point compared to your brain involvement, and I would say the same of my '94 Accord.

I don't entirely disagree. Screwing with the radio while driving can be distracting no matter what kind of radio you have. But on my current car, I control the radio with click wheels on the steering wheel and a small display right in front of the driver, between the speedometer and tachometer (side note, I also get navigation cues on the same screen). So I can manipulate the radio without taking my hands off the wheel at all, and if I need to look at the screen, I glance directly down just as I would to look at the speed. Reaching and looking over to the right, to manipulate something with no tactile feedback seems different to me.

A bigger one is the climate control. I adjust the climate control in my car multiple times per day, every day, without ever glancing at it. I know which knobs to turn and I get the click feedback to know how much I've turned them.

Of course, I haven't tried the Model 3 touch screen (I've played with the one in the Model S, but not extensively), so I can't say for sure. But intuitively it's hard for me to understand how it wouldn't be different.

Texting also used to be something you could do without looking on the old T9 phones, and the law still forbade it. Touchscreen phones are a relatively new invention.

From what I can tell the model 3 has various modes that you get with a single click. Not sure if you can do the same with a voice commands.

But once in the mode, say adjusting the steering wheel, it's the two dials on the steering wheel that control it. Similar for directing the airflow, moving the seats, changing temperature, radio volume, etc.

So sure you have to possibly glance quickly (just like most today's radios), but then you can twiddle all you want without looking and just using your thumbs on the steering wheel.

Yeah, I saw that. I have to admit, that's a hell of a lot better than I thought it was going to be, especially if the voice commands work. I would still rather be able to see the speed without looking all the way down to the touchscreen, but I suppose that's what after market is for. I really like those holographic displays that show the speed right on the windshield. Or I could just use an old phone.

Again, maybe it's just me, but I think touch matters because with physical dials I can find them by feel and manipulate them without looking away at all. I'm sure as you become more familiar with the touch screen, it gets easier, but I can't see how it would ever be as easy without looking as a physical button is.

I'm not saying that every single control in the car needs a dedicated physical button or knob, but really basic stuff that I'm manipulating all the time, I want real buttons.

The model 3 has 2 dials, one to each side of the steering wheel.

By the way, the California law does not ban texting. It bans ALL use of a cell phone unless it's in hands-free mode.

"California’s distracted driving law prohibits all use of a handheld wireless device while driving, unless the motorist operates a device in voice-operated, hands-free mode. A previous incarnation of the law restricted only “text-based” communications, but the current version covers all wireless device functions."

http://www.drivinglaws.org/sb1613.php

Technically that law even bans CB radio using a handheld mic.

You also control Model S' settings via its 17" touchscreen but in model 3 the placement is weird

Yes, that's one of the biggest things I've always disliked about the Model S when I've been in them, but at least it's not the only way to do things.

There's two knobs as well.

I drive a car from 1997, and feel the all-analog cabin is one of the things I'll miss the most in a future automobile. Muscle-memory for the climate controls set in really quickly and even with an aftermarket radio I can still do nearly all common adjustments without looking away from the road or even really thinking about it.

I know someone who drove a second-generation Prius. Sure, yeah, it was 2007, but that awful resistive touchscreen paired with a clunky interface has made me very skeptical of touchscreen controls in cars.

Where I live (Australia) the law is against using a "hand held" mobile phone while driving. The purpose behind the law is to leave your hands available for controlling the vehicle. That is why you can use a "hands free" mount for your phone, and still click on the GPS button or the answer call button for example, while driving.

While I'm happy to clarify your question at least from an Australian point of view (as to why it is illegal to mess with your phone while driving), I actually agree with your main point - that having a touch screen as the main interface is a strange idea.

Having said that, perhaps Tesla tested this a bunch and decided on merit that it works well. Maybe I'm just not used to a touch screen since I miss having a physical knob to turn or button to push. I certainly do miss the tactile edges on certain physical controls - so I can find the right doohickey to press by feeling or counting the edges with my fingers.

No, in almost any discussion about Tesla cars, someone expresses that opinion. There are physical controls on the steering wheel though. You have for example 2 scroll-wheel buttons which can be used to adjust settings while driving without touchscreen interaction.

MotorTrend appear to have the first "drive" review.

It's extremely, extremely positive.

http://www.motortrend.com/cars/tesla/model-3/2018/exclusive-...

It's so positive, it reads like one of those puffy videogame reviews.

I’m in Hawaii this week and the livestream page has a countdown timer that’s showing 2.5 hours to go.

I found a YouTube livestream from a fan that’s decent. So if you’re also having problems, go here: https://youtu.be/cBZeJaqa6ZM

Also in hawaii, and I had the same bug

I’m trying to visit the normal tesla.com, and it keeps redirecting me to this livestream page. teslamotors.com also redirects. Very frustrating.

STANDARD EQUIPMENT

Price – $35,000

Standard Battery

Range: 220 miles (EPA estimated) Supercharging rate: 130 miles of range per 30 minutes . Home charging rate: 30 miles of range per hour (240V outlet, 32A) Deliveries begin: Fall 2017

Performance

0-60 mph: 5.6 seconds Top speed: 130 mph Interior

15” touchscreen display Dual zone climate control system FM/Internet streaming radio Textile seating Front Center console with open storage and two USB ports Convenience

Onboard maps and navigation Wi-Fi and LTE internet connectivity Keyless entry and remote climate control using the Tesla app Voice activated controls Bluetooth hands-free calling and media streaming 60/40 split folding rear seat to maximize cargo options Back-up camera Auto dimming rear-view mirror One-touch power windows throughout Power-adjustable side mirrors 12-volt power outlet

Safety

Full LED exterior lighting Seven cameras, forward radar and twelve ultrasonic sensors enabling active safety technologies including collision avoidance and automatic emergency braking Six front row and two side curtain airbags Three-point safety belts with belt-reminders for driver and four passengers Two LATCH (Lower Anchors and Tethers for Children) attachments in second row Electronic stability and traction control Four-wheel antilock disc brakes with electronic parking brake Child safety locks Anti-theft alarm system Tire pressure monitoring system

Warranty

Vehicle: 4 year, 50,000 mile limited warranty Battery warranty: 8 year, 100,000 mile (120,000 mile with Long Range Battery)

OPTIONS

Long Range Battery – $9,000

Range: 310 miles Supercharging rate: 170 miles of range per 30 minutes Home charging rate: 37 miles of range per hour (240V outlet, 40A) 0-60 mph: 5.1 seconds Top speed: 140 mph Deliveries begin: July 2017

Paint

Solid Black: Standard Midnight Silver Metallic: $1,000 Deep Blue Metallic: $1,000 Silver Metallic: $1,000 Pearl White Multi-Coat: $1,000 Red Multi-Coat: $1,000

Wheels 18” Aero: Standard 19” Sport: $1,500

Premium Upgrades Package – $5,000 Upgraded interior with additional features and premium materials.

Premium heated seating and cabin materials throughout, including open pore wood décor and two rear USBs 12-way, power adjustable front seats, steering column and side mirrors, with custom driver profiles Premium audio system with more power, tweeters, surround speakers and subwoofer Tinted glass roof with ultraviolet and infrared protection Auto dimming, power folding, heated side mirrors LED fog lamps Center console with covered storage and docking for two smartphones

Enhanced Autopilot – $5,000 Model 3 will match speed to traffic conditions, keep within a lane, automatically change lanes, transition from one freeway to another, exit the freeway and self-park at your destination.

Additional features will roll out over time through software updates.

Full Self-Driving Capability – $3,000 (requires Enhanced Autopilot) In the future, Model 3 will be capable of conducting trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat.

This feature is dependent upon extensive software validation and regulatory approval, which may vary by jurisdiction.

VEHICLE SPECIFICATIONS

Dimensions & Weight

Length: 184.8” Width: 76.1” (72.8” with mirrors folded) Height: 56.8” Wheelbase: 113.2” Track (wheel center): 62.2” front and rear Ground clearance: 5.5” Head room, standard: 39.6” front row, 37.7” second row Head room, glass roof: 40.3” front row, 37.7” second row Leg room: 42.7” front row, 35.2” second row Shoulder room: 56.3” front row, 54.0” second row Hip room: 53.4” front row, 52.4” second row Seating capacity: 5 adults Luggage capacity: 15 cubic feet Curb weight: 3549 lbs. (Model 3) 3814 lbs. (Model 3 Long Range) Weight distribution: 47% front, 53% rear (Model 3) 48% front, 52% rear (Model 3 Long Range)

Body

Hybrid steel/aluminum body Drag coefficient of 0.23 Chassis

Double wishbone, virtual steer axis front suspension with coil over twin-tube shock absorbers and stabilizer bar Independent multi-link rear suspension with twin-tube shock absorbers and stabilizer bar Variable ratio, speed sensitive electronic power steering Electromechanically boosted four wheel anti-lock disc brakes with electronic brake force distribution 18” Aero or 19” Sport wheels with all-season tires Standard Accessories

240 volt NEMA 14-50 adapter 120 volt NEMA 5-15 adapter J1772 public charging adapter 20 foot mobile connector with storage bag

> Full Self-Driving Capability – $3,000 (requires Enhanced Autopilot) In the future, Model 3 will be capable of conducting trips with no action required by the person in the driver’s seat.

I think there are some huge caveats to this claim, above and beyond those here. A whole list of asterisks. To be selling, -today-, for $3,000 (on top of $5,000) a claim of Full Self Driving is hugely optimistic, and, I think, misleading.

How many years away, realistically, is full self driving outside of well-maintained sunny (but not TOO sunny!) roads? I don't see this thing cruising through a Pittsburgh winter any time soon.

It's one thing to promise, in the marketing sense. It's another to be charging money for it now when it's really yet another pre-order, this time with nothing close to a timeline.

They're charging for it now hoping most people do not opt for it. It provides a smaller user base of more interested, Tesla-dedicated customers who are willing to test out the new functionality before they make it standard.

Their order process isn't a final submission as well when you place an order someone from Tesla walks through that kind of asterisks with you in person if you opt for that functionality explaining the limitations and confirming you're interested in the functionality.

I've been wondering for a while what type of radio Tesla is installing in their cars. I assume it has AM/FM capabilities but what type of streaming does it have? Is it XM/Sirius compatible? Does it have Google Play/iTunes capabilities? Is it streamed from your cell phone?

What the hell? the tesla.com site is asking me to register and reserve a model 3 with my bank details to watch the live stream??

It required only name and email to access the livestream.

All it really requires is first name, last name and e-mail address so they can (presumably) send you marketing info.

Put in my info to watch the vid thinking they'd use my existing reservation. Nope. Charged another $1k.

Definitely was not necessary to provide payment info to view.

On mobile it was

I'm very curious to see how Tesla scales repair shops and parts, especially given that Model 3's will be owned largely by those from the middle class.

Will they start selling parts to independent mechanics? (Will we have to eventually force them to?)

Hope some of them go to reviewers since Tesla doesn't seem to want to tell us very much about the vehicle they've build.

And I know people get all up in arms when you criticise Tesla; but let's be honest, there's a lot more to a vehicle than just the range and outside appearance. For example, do the rear seats fold down? Is there rear air vents? Spare tire? HD Radio? Do the mirrors fold in? Any other vehicle, even on release day, these are trivial questions that are answered. But we cannot answer much about the Model 3, except its range and 0-60.

And by the way Tesla's website got updated, but only contains 0-60/range/and a vague note about having autopilot hardware (which is odd in itself as there are three tiers of Tesla's autopilot hardware available).

HD Radio?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_Radio

It's a Tesla - the radio goes to 11.

Thank you downvoters -yes, it does go to 11

None of that matters now because you can't buy one yet. They kept their promise to reveal the production car in July 2017 and start deliveries. Anything more than that subjects the S and X to the Osborne Effect.

The cars all went to employees. There will be no news from their owners.

> For example, do the rear seats fold down? Is there rear air vents? Spare tire? HD Radio? Do the mirrors fold in? Any other vehicle, even on release day, these are trivial questions that are answered. But we cannot answer much about the Model 3, except its range and 0-60.

Here are some answers: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-29/tesla-s-m...

> The ventilation system is a marvel, stretching in one long strip that spans the front seat.

> The touch screen allows both the driver and the passenger to instantly direct a wide flow of air wherever they want it.

> The scrolling dials on the steering wheel move in all four directions and allow you to adjust everything from the side windows to the music playlist.

Elon said it in the live stream, they have built 50 Model 3 in production. 30 got delivered at the event 20 are going to be used internally. Production ramps up from that, the target rate for December is 5000/week, expect the production numbers to raise in the months in between.

There are some pretty big worries[1] about tesla's plans for hitting the sales target with the Model S. I remember watching very sad stories on GM's EV car way back in the day.

Basically they want to sell 100K cars within this year this is ~5 times what they sold with the model X/S last year. Time will tell though...

[1] https://seekingalpha.com/article/4085784-tesla-story-becomin...

I never know what to make of Seeking Alpha, except their articles on Tesla don't ever seem to be terribly balanced. (Both directions.)

They are saying the have 1/2 million "reservations" for model 3. Wonder what that means..

A reservation can be made by giving Tesla $1000. You can get it back if you decide not to buy. Max two reservations.

That is not correct. They sold about 80k S/X last year, with the X still growing, achieving 100k does not sound too far-fetched, they sold 47k cars in the first two quarters of the year. The article is extremely biased and full of FUD. The transition to 100kWh batteries was not without problems, that is why they kept the 90kWh option until last quarter. As usual, Tesla might have been slightly optimistic with their timing of the transition from 90 to 100 kWh, consequently there was a slight delay in getting enough 100kWh vehicles made. But they managed to build 25k vehicles in the second quarter as planned. Deliveries lag behind that, as many vehicles have been made but not delivered yet.

It'd be interesting in hearing about how far along autonomy is with the model 3, it seems Tesla may be playing it down in this presentation?

They said it comes with all the hardware necessary but that didn't seem to provide any more information about software and being able to enable it for customers, i.e. regulation and certification of those capabilities.

I think both Audi and Volvo have said they will accept 100% liability for crashes in autonomous mode but I haven't seen a similar statement from Tesla yet.

http://fortune.com/2015/10/07/volvo-liability-self-driving-c... https://www.wired.com/story/self-driving-car-user-interface/

It is easy to say they accept liability, as long as they are not selling any cars qualifying for it. I think this question needs to be seen when and if we are getting cars which can completely take over from the driver - and that basically implies liability by the manufacturer, because I as a driver have not handed over control, if I would be still liable for accidents.

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