Age of Empires: Definitive Edition Beta | Hacker News Reader

Age of Empires: Definitive Edition Beta

ageofempires.com

247 pointsWillyOnWheels124 comments

Can we get a proper sequel or remake (again) to Age of Mythology? The extended edition "remake" on steam by Skybox Labs is a travesty. I honestly just pretend it doesn't exist because it's a better experience using the old version from the early 2000's with Voobly.

So many great memories playing custom scenario maps on AOM back in 2005-2006. I still have some of the maps but I lost my own "Lobster Escape" creation.

Also fun fact, around 2013 I discovered that the original ESO multiplayer servers were still online and hosted by Microsoft, the game didn't allow you to login because the SSL certificate was expired, but Fiddler2 actually got around that issue and I was able to login with my old ESO account details (these were originally created as live/hotmail accounts with a custom domain).

Yeah AoM was the best. I was introduced to programming in their editor. Made it into a short turn based rpg.

The ESO servers are still online (at least till a couple of months ago). I had issues with AoE 3. In case you forget your password, you can't recover it because they don't send recover emails, sending emails to some support emails from their support page/faq doesn't work (getting "Message could not be delivered"). And each account is connected to one cdkey. A last option is to play with friends/other people on game ranger, or buy a new game, and create a new ESO acount.

AoE 3 plays great on LAN, you only need a single copy to play with friends if you apply the latest patch (which removes the CD key dependence). I still play it regularly with my kids. If you're not all on the same LAN there's software around that will set up a tunnel to make it appear you are to AoE (forgot the name).

With friends I play the steam version (we all have it on steam) via game ranger. Strange, steam and game ranger. But it works. I just can't play a random game via ESO.

Are you thinking of Hamachi?

I just run OpenVPN on my server with password authentication and really weak (but fast) crypto. Obviously only for LAN games, don't run a minimal security configuration for anything important.

Yes, that's the one, thnx

I never really played the campaigns but as far as multiplayer all sequels/expansions after RoR were crap. AoK was OK but still a big let down.

Why do you say so? The original AoE always struck me as kind of clunky, specially because of the atrocious path-finding. But I never actually played it in multiplayer.

The pathfinding was quite good when you consider the constraints - target platform (Pentium 90 with 16 _MB_! of RAM), dozens of units moving independently, etc.

And multiplayer was really where the fun was for many of us. This was pretty early in the multiplayer era, so being able to play with up to 8 players in the same game over the internet seemed amazing.

strongly agree about the multiplayer. not generally into re-playing video games from my younger days, but i'm really looking forward to this.

I wish that history lessons could show videos of custom AoE maps with recreated player actions that correspond to real-life past events.

Studying history is a combination of 1. Calendars, 2. Maps, 3. Contacts, and 4. Messages.

I've been trying to figure out how to represent Calendar & Map data in a single user interface. (such a program would have other uses outside history, too). A video of a changing map, such as a screen recording of an AoE game, is one way I can think to show that data. Being able to then click on the characters and see what they're doing/saying would be helpful too. This idea is still quite vague in my head, but if anyone has any comments, I'd appreciate the discussion.

It's my current hobby to explore ways to do this. My goal is to create a library which I can then use for several purposes. I'm mostly inspired by Civilization V end game replay map[0]. My second goal is to use the library to create a few educational map-based history tools because I love reading that stuff but have a hard time visualising it.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KTQN5nW24U

I'm very interested to know the details an perhaps help build it. Looks very promising. Can we connect akhil.karun [at] gmail.

I wonder if history lessons should have been taught this way. To play the game instead of having to attend school/read lengthy boring textbooks.

I remember pretty much nothing of history in at high school. Hundreds of hours went in vain. I still remember pretty much every video game I played. I remember San Andreas map to some extent for example. I remember Age of Mythology.

If history is repeated as a video game, I'd guess most people will get to "learn" history and remember it. At least, for me, I would.

I strongly agree with this. A recent Google search I did showed companies are already trying this with VR. I hope within the next decade it is common place for students to learn history by being put in the shoes of different people during the events.

I know one famous history lesson where a teacher separated her class into 2 groups based on the color of their eyes. This happened shortly after Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated. The teacher than treated one group superior to the others. They received longer recess, praise & other benefits. The inferior group was treated very poorly & their grades & attitude suffered because of it. The next day she said she made a mistake & the other group was superior. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/introduction-2/

The students in my school had a history teacher that would randomly surprise us in Middle School with an announcement of our school being selected to send one student to space. He put on a great acting performance to a bunch of gullible students. He did this to discuss what it might have been like sailing across the ocean to discover a new continent. He also talked about the teacher that sadly died with several astronauts in an explosion. Almost everyone who attended my school remembers this lesson.

Imagine if it was easy for all teachers to provide historical lessons with such impact & meaning. The improvements it could make in civil engagement, relations in our communities & maybe it could even help curb the constant jumping to conclusions that people love to do.

"Your first homework assignment of this class is to complete the William Wallace Campaign."

But in all seriousness, while I do really like this idea, I have a feeling that costs of development might outweigh the benefits somewhat. Although having said that, if somebody made an Age of Empires style game which was chock full of historical information I would buy it in an instant.

> costs of development might outweigh the benefits somewhat

Shouldn't it be the other way around? If it is a joint operation by a few countries, and it can be accessible to the whole world, the cost will be less than the textbooks kids are buying today.

Wouldn't Total War be a better engine for this? From memory many of the big battles are already as options and a quick Google shows there is an scripting engine for this very purpose.

It has been done.

https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/6kso6w/historic_d...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cax2vIb22nc

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decisive_Battles

WoW! That youtube channel is amazing. Very informative videos.

Empire Earth had the ability to take geographic elevation data as input to the map maker. My buddy and I did a high school presentation on Paul Revere where we imported Boston and then made a series of triggered events to show the ride. The Redcoat was Britain's special unit in the game so it ended up looking pretty good!

You could potentially use something like a Minard diagram? https://robots.thoughtbot.com/analyzing-minards-visualizatio...

Something like this ?

http://www.larramendi.es/es/timeline/autores.do

Perhaps a timeline-scroller-calendar that acts like the ones in a movie player.

The work is very impressive and the following statement should in no way diminish that.

Maybe because I grew up with it, but I love the 2D pixelated version of most old school RTS and grand strategy games. I can't explain why but it feels like how RTS ought to be. Bird view with 3D HD rendered bodies always feels like wasting electricity and meaningless graphics card deterioration.

Honestly, it also looks a lot better in my opinion. The 3D version is for lack of a better word more "computer-y" and cheap, its shortcomings are visually jarring and it doesn't really fail gracefully at all. It almost looks like those shitty games from banner ads.

The 2D version in comparison is much more pleasing to look at, it has the feel of old-school hand-drawn animated movies.

I know they said its not the final version of the art, but I think my gripes are not just about models and lightning or what have you. It's AoE, I don't need or want photorealism!

Maybe, however let me disagree a little with that. It's not the same level of pain as Warcraft 3 and games from this timeframe where they started to do 3D without actually having the power to do it right yet. I'd say this AoE 3D version looks a lot more pleasing to the eye.

I think it also depends a lot on the quality of the game art and personal taste. To me, the 2d Red Alert (1996-97) looked terrible even at the time and the Total Annihilation (the OG 3d RTS, 1997) looked great.

Funny thing is the version of AoE that I have in my memory from the 90s actually looks like the new version show here. Back then it was super HD (and did waste electricity and meaninglessly burn CPU cycles). I don't understand people who go back and play the original games from their childhood. The version of those games in my memory is so much greater and if I actually see the originals again I'm thoroughly disappointed.

I think that has something to do with them originally being played on CRTs, the colour just looked better to me.

Not only that, but CRT intrinsically blurred sprites, low-resolution sprites yield very, very different results on CRTs and LCDs. That is one of the things which bothers me with the revival of "pixel art" games, that's not how old games actually looked when you were playing them.

Some people exploited this to get nice color effects: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_artifact_colors

High quality CRTs looked better in every way really. But it's not just that. There are groups in my area that actually play old N64 games on old CRT TVs and it still looks bad. I really wished that I just kept those old games as treasured memories from my childhood and didn't go and revisit them.

Nostalgia is a hell of a drug.

There are some old games that I revisit and still enjoy like I used to. Carrier Command is one such game. I still break it out to play every few years. Sim City 2000 is another game that I still enjoy playing but my style of play is much different now. I make LONG term plans when laying out and designing a city that I never did when I was younger.

I tried playing the original Sim City and yeah, it was better in my memory than it was to play again. I won't even try Falcon 2.0 because I know it will be awful to play now.

Some shooters hold up well because my newer hardware can support much higher graphics settings but then some others don't hold up because their physics were so primitive. It's really hit or miss.

I still want to eventually get around to replaying Elvira: Mistress Of The Dark again.

All in all, I don't regret any of the games I revisited.

Much smaller too, the vast majority had 14-15" CRTs back in the day (non-widescreen too) while 19"+ LCD is common now.

I'll save you some time.

They remade the game, but it's not available yet.

You can register for the beta IF you accept the NDA.

And you need an xbox live account.

I got stuck at "need an xbox live account".

Since you need Windows 10 to play the game. Open up the Xbox app on your PC, it'll ask you to create a username.

I used a microsoft account, never had an xbox live subscription/game and it worked.

I used a @hotmail.com email address, here is what it says:

    There is a problem with your login.  Please be sure you are using a Microsoft account with an XBox Live account associated and that you have authorized access to your profile information if prompted.

Maybe "@hotmail.com" is not considered a microsoft account ? What are you using (@outlook.com) ?

Same here. Resolved by: 1. logging in through https://account.xbox.com/ 2. click profile picture top right corner and click profile 3. Privacy settings 4. Privacy and Online Safety > Privacy 5. Allow all "Microsoft Can" options (possibly not all needed but don't know which ones required so..)

That worked for me, thank you !

I didn't change any settings though. Maybe I just needed to login on https://account.xbox.com/

My old university email that was linked to microsoft when I signed up for visual studio i think? Not sure if this will still work, was a few years ago.

https://login.live.com/login.srf?lw=1

For AoE players, check out 0AD http://play0ad.com

It's free, open source and very similar but in my opinion a better game.

0ad is great. I play it quite often with colleagues after work. That said, the pace of development is very slow, path-finding is pretty broke for the majority of formations and it can get very slow when dealing with the formation animations. Some of the core maps are fundamentally broken also (siege weapons and elephants can't fit through the mountains on one map making it almost impossible to win).

By the way, a new Alpha came out last week. Might be worth a test drive as they're constantly improving the game.

As in they aren't randomly generated? Or any placement of mountains creates an impassable pass?

Not exactly related to the definitive edition but that's a really nice podcast episode about how the reviving of the old Age of Empires games started, how it was to work with the original developers at Microsoft and why 2D still looks so much better than 3D games from that time. I really recommend it!

https://www.hanselminutes.com/568/forgotten-empires-amazing-...

It's a great episode, thanks for the link.

However the podcast is from before the AoE1 remake announcement. It's about the AoE2 remake. Forgotten Empires were a bunch of fan modders that made an unofficial expansion in 2012. In 2013 Microsoft relaunched AoE2 HD and Forgotten Empires got to release there fan expansion into an official expansion. Forgotten Empires, now LLC, hired Matt Pritchard and Rich Geldreich from Ensemble Studios fame and they are now the developers of the AoE1 remake. Such a great story :)

http://www.forgottenempires.net/former-ensemble-studios-lead...

This reminds that we need more open source games. There are old games I would love to play again, especially after the community has fixed the biggest pain points.

Why can't we have open and free games? Why not atleast after commercialization has ended? The current situation feels like stealing from mankinds heritage.

There is 0AD and the various games of Spring RTS.

The problem is often that the infrastructure around such open source games is bad/crumbles. Everyone wants to write shiny gamedesign code, nobody wants to work on tools or server-software.

Another issue is, that people who felt the pain, dont have a way of knowing when the pain is fixed. If you could have a github-trigger, as in "send me notification, if the following issues are fixed" and the devs could see that there is a potential crowd waiting - that would be awesome.

Especially when the source code isn't exactly an asset at that point. The code behind most old games is probably too brittle/clunky/coupled to be reused in new works, but enthusiastic fans would gladly breathe life into them, even non-commercially.

The sources for big things like Starcraft and Age of Empires II gives you a monopoly on the new content though, so I understand why publishers keep those hits close to their chest. It's a shame they're not more liberal about the ones they aren't actively keeping up.

Check this out: http://openage.sft.mx/

Thanks for pointing this out. I like projects of this sort, but imagine they could start with the original source code.

Microsoft tried that with aoe2hd, start with the original source code, and it's been worse than the original since release.

Could you elaborate on things you found worse in AoE2 HD vs the original?

I've never played the original, but I'm a huge fan of the HD release and all of it expansions.

It's laggier and has desync issues. Not just me but commonly experienced by streamers I watch and frequently discussed on /r/aoe2. Voobly has a much better experience. Worth checking out, particularly if you're any good.

This needs to be done for Empire Earth series as well which seem to have been forgotten and obstacled by Civ, AoE, AoM franchises.

You can always play Rise of Nations? True, it doesn't go into the far future, but it's in all ways a more polished experience than Empire Earth.

Yeah, RoN is my preferred RTS throwback game. Such a good game. I think the later ages are poorly done though. I usually limit the game to 2-3 age advancements. Super fun.

Thanks for reminding me, a series I completely missed out on. Time to revisit them.

agreed.... age of empires was a nice intro but empire earth is where so many hours of my youth were spent

I'd actually be completely fine with the original graphics, so long as they scaled to my larger screen correctly. I enjoy having older games that run on some of the older hardware that I have around (or newer, but far cheaper), but they do tend to have only a short list of supported modes, rather than querying the hardware for capabilities.

I'm also totally fine with the graphics. It was never the graphics that did it, but a nice tech tree and good gameplay. So far, I can't really see anything in their comparison video that makes me want to play it.

AoE2 (non-HD) with Voobly actually works really well. What MS could do is just take a look at that, and make an update based on that. AoE2 HD works too, but unless you are running beta 5.5, it's less playable than AoE 2 non-HD.

I suppose most remake-teams aren't that interested in the people that are currently playing or targeting people that might want good gameplay and integration with mods and platforms of choice (i.e. good Wine support and maybe a macOS build?). This is also why AoE3 pretty much failed: it didn't help with the fancy graphics and while pathfinding and engine errors were better, the gameplay was pretty much half as good as the older editions...

I bought AoE and AoE2 boxed for PC and Mac, it was great back then, and still is. If they could just fix the engine, update unit selection and pathfinding, get good resolution/monitor support and revise their networking code, I'd pay for that. I don't want 3D models or 4D or 5D or UHD or VR, the 2D-ish sprites are fine.

You should checkout the HD edition that is on Steam. It is exactly like the original but with higher resolution and multi monitor support. It was exactly what I wanted.

Edit: I thought this was AOEII, after looking at the site more I realized this is AOE.

I just want AOEIII.

AOE3 exists, so I u guess you can have it?

I can has it :).

Its been out for about 10 years.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/105450/Age_of_Empires_III_...

Holy moly! Thanks - I've actually never played this - In 2009/2010 I was very engrossed in a different RTS... I'm sure you can guess which.

Which?

Probably DOTA.

I haven't played AoE in over a decade, but looking at the original graphics in the article, it looks exactly like I remember. Nostalgia often is not kind to games we used to love (haven't played Goldeneye/Perfect Dark in a while? Don't bother), but AoE, even looking like a 1997 game, still looks just fine.

Maybe it's because so many F2P mobile games copied their art style directly so it looks like it could be a mobile RTS from 2015 that's kept that art style so relevant.

Yeah, Goldeneye/Perfect Dark are pretty bad (though being a PlayStation kid, my primary experience was TimeSplitters, but they're all practically the same game), but that's more for the controls than the graphics. We kind of take FPS controls for granted these days (and when modern games like PUBG make crouch C instead of the Most Natural and Just CTRL, there is much wailing and gnashing of teeth), but it was far from a solved problem 20 years ago.

But the RTS genre has literally not changed at all since AoE. The big question in my mind is: is AoE a universal truth, or are RTS developers lazy?

Have you tried SC2? It requires some getting into, but the dynamics of the game and the relationships between different races and the tech tree is very well thought out (a well timed upgrade allows you to kill a given unit in 2 shots instead of 3, changing the balance dramatically).

In many ways, as an AoE1&2 fan, I find SC2 a good continuation of some of the best aspects of the RTS genre that requires both a tactical and strategic mind.

The original graphics, when 'multiplied up' are pretty horrid. Especially for a 4K screen.

No, don't scale the sprites. Fit more sprites on the screen. What the hell is the point of having these high res screens if we can't fit more shit on them?

As someone who has played it both ways (with and without scaled sprites) I can tell you that on a high dpi screen it is impossible to play. With the sprites scaled it is just ugly to play :-)

While the nostalgia is nice with the BW remaster, Homeworld remaster, AOE 2 HD, and now AOE Definitive, I wish there were more AAA RTS titles coming out at the same rate MOBAs or FPSs come out. It's often considered a dying genre, and we're not inducting new players into it because there aren't enough modern options out there for people to branch out and explore. It's all stuff that 25+ year old gamers remember playing as kids, and get a kick out of being pretty elitist about one of the hardest genres of games. It makes me quite sad, not only as a long-time gamer fan of RTS, but as a game developer who believes it's a genre with a lot of room for innovative and exciting mechanics which aren't being explored because the player-base is shrinking.

At least we got Deserts of Kharak recently which was a really good title. I still play StarCraft 2 because it's the only RTS with an active online multiplayer community, but I would love for there to be regular and more RTS titles coming onto the scene.

Check out Tooth and Tail (http://www.toothandtailgame.com/), it's an indie-made RTS with high production values.

openra servers are decently active

Isn't it ironic to release a beta for a "definitive edition" of something?

Somewhat tangential... Would someone like to challenge me to 0 A.D.?

But how? VPN?

It's been a minute for me, admittedly. Are the multiplayer servers not online anymore :(?

Dunno, I just play over VPN.

I guess a Linux version would be too much to ask for, this being from Microsoft and all.

Open Age: http://openage.sft.mx/

The HD edition on steam used to run under wine. Now it doesn't, but you can roll back to a previous version for now.

Well, they say they now love Linux, so I expect a Linux version soon

I wouldn't. Games aren't written by DevDiv or the Azure team.

The current versions of AOE1 and 2 play well on Wine. Maybe this new edition will too, I hope.

I hope not. I lost too many hours to the original.

If this runs on Wine bad things will happen...

http://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/4633/VVWcoQ.png

Bullies..!

Anyone who signed up for the Beta know if there will be Mac Build?

According to their communications so far, its Xbox One/Windows 10 only.

same question, I'd love to play on my mac. Unfortunately, I don't know if we can expect Microsoft to put a lot of effort in this...

I've waited for this game for a long, long time. AoE was one of the first PC games I played. I've lost hundreds of hours on it.

I attribute all my love of history to Ensemble Studios.

AoE2 was where I picked up the "turn up where they don't expect" tactic: you can just drop a town center anywhere, so slowly building to a crushing blow from an unexpected direction, while simultaneously not dying when your opponent thinks you should, works spectacularly well.

Turns out this is an extremely valuable life lesson.

This tactic was totally broken in AoM, where they forced town center locations (I presume intentionally, for this reason). I hated it.

Speaking of dropping a town center anywhere... the Persians get a civ advantage of a double-HP town center, which makes it a viable strategy to use your town center in a tower rush (aka the "Persian Douche" strategy). It's very aggressive and can put an opponent off-balance because they don't expect you to be up in their face in the Dark Ages, but the downside is that if it doesn't work you're stuck with a massive research and economic disadvantage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4DF099-DNo

(and here it is defended successfully: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcVTHFBeXM4 )

Apropos of nothing: I am not really into the whole "watching people stream video gamess" thing for the most part but I recently discovered that I do enjoy a lot of this guy's AOE2 videos. There's a lot going on in high-level AOE2 play and it's really nice to have someone who knows what they're doing breaking it down for you.

Also, shameless plug for youtube-dl, it's really nice to pull them down and watch them in a local video player instead of streaming them directly.

I received my copy in a packet of Nutri-Grain (a breakfast cereal). In hindsight it must have been a freemium/demo version but it didn't stop me playing it for hours on end.

StarCraft Remastered and Age of Empires: Definitive Edition, wow. Feast for classic game players. I played both when they were released, I prefer StarCraft due to its perfect gameplay (multiplayer), competitiveness/balance, it's the real king of RTS. However, Age of Empires is also great with different flavours.

BTW: I've already pre-purchased StarCraft Remastered and can't wait to see it released on 14 August ;-)

The most important question: will it carry Big Daddy and the other cheat units?! (see e.g. http://www.mogelpower.de/cheats/Age-of-Empires_PC_32.html)

I'm super excited about this. Which civilization did you all play with? I remember I liked the Byzantines and the Persians. The Turks also had those knights which were pretty cool.

You are thinking of Age of Empires 2. There is actually already an HD remake of that game, with new (optional) civilizations and various gameplay improvements. You can find it on Steam.

As regards civilization, I have been playing AoE2HD with the Mongols. I always used to play the Romans for AoE, though I think I will switch to Greeks or Assyrians if I pick up this one.

You're right. I'm thinking of AeE2. Will definitely have to check out the remake! Thanks for the rec. Ah, I remember the Mongols too! Nice!

Signed up more than a month ago (24 June), did the survey, but still no reply. Don't think they're giving out any more beta keys... :(

After a long period of no gaming, I bought a gaming pc last year and the only thing I have played so far is AoE 2 (:

Looking forward to this edition!

I really wish they would make a proper remaster of Age of Empires II. The HD edition doesn't cut it.

woot!

Some people love games no matter the graphics. For me I can't stand games with bad graphics. I think all these reboots are money grabs that add little given today's standards. They need to do a 3D remake of aoe otherwise it's just pointless if you ask me.

I know a lot of people think graphics don't matter. If that's you, I respect that. But for me personally, I would actually consider starting a team to do a 3D remake that is fully compatible with the original.

Why are 3D graphics automatically better than 2D? Beauty and aesthetics have nothing to do with 3D vs 2D.

The example of this closest to my heart has always been Pharaoh, an amazing game from 2000, which looks a huge amount better than it's spiritual successor, released in 2004, Immortal Cities: Children of the Nile.

http://image.buildinggame.net/screenshot-cleopatra-game-buil... http://cf.shacknews.com/shack_images/sshots/immortalcities/1...

Loved that game

2D ages better too. So many PSOne/N64 games have aged badly in terms of looks (especially now with HDTVs) but SNES and sprite-based PSOne games still hold up.

In fact, it can be annoying. I've been playing Europa Universalis IV, and I quite enjoy the game, but as an owner of an older laptop with good specs but a weak graphics card (quite common in "business class"), I really wish it had a 2D mode.

Agreed a million times. 2D art is a big part of a lot of the living generations' gaming history and it shouldn't be discounte just for missing a D.

A good 3D remake would use the same models, which really are beautiful. But in 3D you could experience them with so much more clarity, from any angle and at any zoom. It just makes the experience so much more immersive.

I realize that this is just my personal taste... I love 3D movies too!

Beneath the spartans cloak there are untextured undies. You do not want that 3D Experience.

To each their own, but I find poorly done 2D less of a problem than poorly done 3D, and 3D doesn't age nearly as well, particularly where human models are concerned.

I certainly wouldn't consider 2D graphics categorically "bad," that makes about as much sense as considering books, comics or paintings bad because they're not animated.

Do you mean a 3d render from a fixed point like pieces on a board, or full immersive 3d interaction?

I've not seen a game that does the latter well. The extra degree of freedom, and the extra controls you need to manage it, just ends up confusing.

I mean 3D like age of mythology. For me personally, I would gladly put up with the extra controls for the sake of more eye candy. It makes it more immersive for me. I think I like ape2 better than aoe3 in many ways, but it's just so hard for me to switch from aoe3s full 3D graphics back to those of aoe2

No interest in UWP. Period.

Release it Steam, or it never happened.

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