Did Americans in 1776 have British accents?
nicholasjohnpatrick.com
nicholasjohnpatrick.com
It's like they almost take pride in differentiation. Throw an international party and the two UKians that show up will have a verbal civil war that puts us Somalis to shame. The shopkeepers maintain their peace with healthy and frequent exchange of muted disdain and murmured resentment. That's, when the other ethnic tonsils are not being inflamed (Scotts, Welsh, and the verile Manx; consciously absent are the clover-wielding gentlemen of the east, left out of the union for my own safety, and to keep membership of my drinking club.)
All good people though. Except the Chavs; a meta-culture of mediocrity that belongs on the next boat leaving for America, to plug the Gulf oil well.
[Edit:
Oh, this seems to have offended someone, most likely a fellow yank. No need to be a hero; piss-taking is a national past-time of the Isles, and its cultural debris scattered around the world, outside the U.S (we have escaped the wit shrapnels I guess) I have deliberately disclosed my own heritage within that rant above, expecting to be paid in kind ;-) When in doubt, stay out of it. It's a bonding experience]
Not a lot has changed, then...
This is also the man who said "You would make a ship sail against the winds and currents by lighting a bonfire under her deck? I have no time for such nonsense."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UgpfSp2t6k
(make sure to not miss a second)
--
Edit:
Let me add that what you're noticing is probably my staccato diction, filled with code-words and verbal winks to deliver mild amusement to an invisible audience of masochists who I love oh so very much.
Cultural and linguistic banter might not be appreciated in these "learned" circles; but to the objects of my affection, the working classes of the crown and its colonies, it's a delicacy best enjoyed over beer and a pool table (Warning: too much of it might lead to the real-world version of a downvote, a black eye.)
I stopped short of scratching others as well, my gut response was to say "Did you divorce a German and take half her humor in settlement." That would have gotten an ovation from the English crowd, but could have confused you and other festive yanks in this victorious of all occasions! Happy 4th of July, mate! No harm was meant :-D
I have a sense of humor and will laugh at just about anything but the written word does a poor job at conveying subtleties. If you want to be interpreted as "piss-taking" and not another internet troll, you need to do better.
EDIT: How does this get down-voted? I'm simply saying he misinterpreted a comment and then was himself misinterpreted. If the point of "piss-taking" is just to have a little fun then I would think that it would follow that it be relatively clear that's what you are doing. Clearly that didn't happen on both sides here.
I too was offended the first time it happened to me, but I dropped all pretense and self-righteousness; learn to give it back, cold, and you might earn yourself that highest label of endearment: the C-word :-) Then you shout the first round and move on.
In my original diatribe I was paying out the poms, as Aussies would say.
> Oh, a funny American. Did you get that humor in a legal settlement?
Sure, this comment might just be banter considering the way you misinterpreted the original comment but when you take it the way it was meant, it just looks like petty trolling. That's all I am saying.
And I'm done here. I've made my point and people are down-voting.
Also, IIRC, the colonies tended to have a commonality in heritage of the colonists, too. E.g. at one time, Australia had a "large number" of criminals, there are quite a lot of Dutch in NZ -- there are large parts of NZ with very strong Scots heritage -- New York is famous for Irish heritage, other parts of USA are famous for German, etc. The UK hasn't really had the same homogenisation outside the big cities.
The thing with US accents is that we're a very mobile country. People move around and lose much of their accent. I lost a lot of my own living in Atlanta, which is over half non-Georgian, and then a lot more living in California the last decade or so. It's there, but only in traces. A lot of Americans are the same...
People that think they have this accent or that someone else has this accent will often refer to it as "no accent". It's not an ethnocentric viewpoint. Now, I definitely think the average person is not aware of how distinctive their accent really is and mistakenly think they have a non-regional one. But I do think it exists.
Just to give an example off the top of my head: take Conan O'Brien. He's from Boston, went to college in Boston but does he have a Boston accent? Maybe you could pick it out of his voice, but the average person probably wouldn't and he certainly doesn't have a strong one.
I then spent 2 years in Boston. And now 2 years in Toronto. My accent is completely mangled and jumps all over the place (ie, I might sound vaguely North American, but I know that you there's a 'h' in 'herbs').
It's worth pointing out that whilst I often get ribbed for having no accent...
it was a light hearted comment :)
I find accents hard to pick up but fascinating. I can just about make out the accent differences between my (town-sized) city and the next one though as there is a specific inflection that differs.
Actually, if you record your voice, you will find that your spoken voice has a slight accent, while your "inner voice" (the one you use to compose emails) has no accent. This is because talking to yourself sounds different, due to the acoustics of your head and ears (or whatever).
I think the fact that Socal has become the defacto American accent via TV may be distracting you.
Wikipedia page about it:
It's sad because it's such a beautiful and rich language; the young folks doing the translation are doing it a great disservice diluting it in their rush for volume.
For Arabic; almost every Arab is a gray-beard language nazi! All traces of foreign influence are removed with urgent and great prejudice. Which is good.
Also, once I've met a guy AFAIR south London or sth, he spoke that his wife told me even most of Brits don't get him (it was an accent, not just that he was mumbling).
They will be London accents; of which there is quite a broad range anyway. It can be a pretty strong accent.
* while every Brit I've met in my life had this 'royal' accent I personally don't find understandable*
Queens English should be pretty understandable; so it might not be what you've heard (the whole point of it is precise pronunciation and erudition). "Normal" baseline English can vary quite a lot; down in the south they tend to clip words (my mother does this) and, if speaking quickly, it can be hard to follow.
We also have a tendancy to mumble :)
It wasn't any Scottish (this one I recognize). I have no problem understanding and talking to most Brits, Americans, Canadians, but sometimes you (Brits) really surprise me :D
I can't place it exactly but it sounds like a London or non-posh southern accent.
I am a true Australian, since I don't actually live there, and consider anyone else living there, not an Aborigine, to be just a bunch of bloody tourist wankers, heh heh ..
'Excuse me, do you have you wireless internet access here?' (pronouncing it British / Australian style as a two syllable word)
'Sorry sir?'
'Excuse me, do you have you wireless internet here?'
'I'm sorry I don't understand'
'Do you have you wiYERless internet here?'
'Yes Sir, we do have wiYERless. Here's an access card...'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suVxmPpyR9s
Edit: My experience (and that of other Aussies traveling to America) seems to be that you have to slightly Americanise the way you speak to be understood easily.
There is not exactly one Aussie accent; a posh office jockey from a major CBD will not sound the same as a country boy. Americans probably wont get Chopper (the comedian) but they should have no trouble with Carl Barron.
Not to speak of Catalonia, Basque Country, Andalusia, Madrid, Zaragoza or Galicia (closer to Portuguese).
Spain has now 6 official and co-official languages: Castilian/Spanish, Catalan/Valencian (Catalonia, Balearic Islands, Valencia, South of France), Basque (Basque Country and Navarra —Pamplona—, South of France), Galician (Galician and nortwest Castille), and Asturian (Asturias/Leon) and then Occitan (North Aragon, North Catalonia, South of France).
Also, in Melilla and Ceuta (Spanish cities in North Africa) there are two "branches" of arab that are in the process of becoming co-official, "dariya" or "moroccan arab" in Ceuta and "tamazig", some sort of antique Bereber language in Melilla.
So, that's 8 languages, also Portuguese and a myriad different accents in a peninsula with less the area of Texas.
Edit: Bereber is older than arab, so it's not an 'arab branch'.
Edit2: Add English to the list, as official language spoken in Gibraltar (UK colony).
I guess difference, if we call it that way, between Spanish and Castellano as terms, is the similar of English and British. Right? I'm not sure, but I guess they are close.
Check this map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Castellano-Espa%C3%B1ol.pn...
* Blue: Places where it's mainly called 'Spanish' (Español)
* Red: Places where it's mainly called 'Castilian' (Castellano)
In any case, I have never met a Spanish person who said "I speak Spanish" in Castellano. I have heard Spanish people saying that in English, because most foreigners are somewhat ignorant about Spain and think that the country is all about toros y sevillanas, a monolithic, homogeneous block, culturally and linguistically, which is far from the truth.
Disclaimer: I am Portuguese.
In America is different, as there are no more 'Spanish languages' spoken there (apart from Portuguese being an 'Hispanic language') it's more fair to say 'Español' again: I guess.
The difference between 'Spanish' and 'Hispanic' will fill books and books. I remember studying when Queen of Castille and Navarre, and the King of Aragon married and thus, creating what's mostly known today as Spain, calling it something like 'Ispania / Espanya' and get an angry letter from King of Portugal saying something like:
"You can't call your kingdom that way, because 'Hispania' refers to the whole peninsula and Portugal is not part of the kingdom, so change it asap, thanx bye"
History is sure fun
Roman "Hispania" included originally a good chunk of what today is southern France and of the north of Africa, territory that nowadays would be in Morocco and Algeria.
After the Muslim invasion, (I)spania it was the name the Christians gave to Al-Andalus, the Muslim part of the peninsula, while the Christian northwest preserved the name Gallaecia. In some of these maps, especially in the translation of arab ones, the opposition Gallaecia vs (H(i))spania/Al-Andalus can be observed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfcBE8iEYkc
The kingdom of Aragon, and therefore "Ispania", included Sicily and Naples too at some point.
As opposed to nearby romances, Spanish never distinguished between 'b' and 'v'. This is probably a Basque influence. There was a Roman pun[1] on these lines that said "beati Hispani quibus vivere bibere est" (blessed are the Spaniards, for whom to live [vivere] is to drink [bibere]).
By the way, this joke was played on Aquitanians, who occupied land mostly outside of the peninsula (nowadays southwest of France). This links with other thread on the historical fluidity of the concept of 'Hispania.'
Whoever differentiates between b and v speaking Spanish nowadays is either:
- a native Catalan speaker,
- trying to appear more upper-class through imitation of the French, a fashion that started in the Illustration times, or
- a descendant of one of the above.
Can you shed more light on 'll' vs 'y'? In Mexico, at least, the two are similar enough that handmade signs frequently contain spelling errors confusing the two.
You know, Argentinians also speak Castilian, and the way they pronounce the -ll- is completely different from everyone else. Hence, bringing up Mexico to prove that Spanish pronounce -ll- and -y- the same way is a very weak form of argumentation. Euccastro seems to know what he's talking about, so shame on whoever downvoted him.
Read the last message in the thread:
(Quinto Horacio Flaco (65-8 B.C.), Latin poet)
Re: the confusion of 'll' and 'y' in Mexico and elsewhere:
We pick up the dialect of the people that we are exposed to as we learn speech, so likely back then family was more influential then now, especially if you lived in the country.
And, of course, how we speak was influenced by the native population. I grew up near the Onondaga Reservation in New York and probably speak a bit like the people who live there.
Portuguese poetry of the Renaissance period only makes sense phonetically if spoken with a Brazilian accent
In this case I wonder which Brazilian accent? I guess it would be Rio accent or some Northeastern accent.
In case anyone is curious the hear the differences, this page contains recordings of a Portuguese sentence spoken by people of several different areas:
http://www.learningportuguese.co.uk/audio/compare-accents.ht...
- they both remained mostly latin languages, and
- that influence had already happened when American colonization began. In Spain, the Muslim and Jewish were banned the very year America was discovered.
So the only explanatory power of that fact may be that
- Portuguese colonies were repopulated mainly from the north of the country (as was the case at least for Brazil), and
- that the southern dialects of the language have been promoted as the standard and expanded throughout the country. This is true today, where mass media are washing away the northern phonetics (actually richer: they distinguish between x and ch and -om and -am), accents and vocabulary in new generations.
Nowadays, the pronunciation of Lisbon (center-south) actually loses information (deemphasizing and even omitting some vowels and losing other distinctions like -om/-am into ão) wrt others, so it's hard to imagine evolution to have happened the other way.
I think this is because of the combination of rothic-sounds (rothic R), and a whole lot of nasal- and smooth-sounds alltogether. (Feel free, to translate this sentence into linguistical-speak).
Hahahahahaha. Oh, good one.
Spoken like someone who has never been here. There are a ton of different accents: northeastern, midwestern, southern, californian, northwestern are the broad top level ones and the distill even further depending on where you are in those areas. For example, people from Minnesota and people from Indiana clearly sound different (Indiana having a slight twang or drawl, while Minnesota sounding mildly Norwegian). It's a big contrast with the likes of Strong Island in New York. Or with Texas.
A quick disclaimer: I have zero background in linguistics. The only materials I used for research were Wikipedia and Google Books (http://books.google.com/books?id=ia5tHVtQPn8C). Moreover, this is nothing more than a short post on my personal blog. So, don't expect an academic paper on the subject. ;)
Anyway, thanks for reading!
I've heard that the French-Canadian accent is closer to pre-Revolutionary French as well.
It seems that those areas with the least upheavals are where language stays the most constant.
immigration into the south is much less than the east/west coast, populations are still lower, less immigration, less languages, less influence?
"Standard" French was once just the local dialect of Isle-de-France, a small region including Paris, but "French", even in France today, is but a loose collection of mutually-comprehensible dialects. Canadian French has its own little quirks, though, in that it had to create its own vocabulary not only for the uniquely North American flora, fauna and landscape, but also for new items of technology that emerged while we were almost without communication with France. F'rinstance, to the French ear, a French Canadian would seem to indicate that he had just created a park (in the public gardens sense) out of his tank (armoured and armed military vehicle) rather than that he'd just parked his car.
That's simply not the case. A lot of effort has been made by the French Republic to spread the standard french language (mandatory school with class in french, even for kids speaking regional dialects). Nowadays, there are still local expressions and idioms, but the vocabulary is quite homogeneous.
It may very well be that Time reported that, as I have read that statement in various places, but I have also read disagreements with that statement.
http://www.wordorigins.org/index.php/more/886/
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=380983
http://thelibrary.springfield.missouri.org/lochist/periodica...
http://books.google.com/books?id=ia5tHVtQPn8C&pg=PA126...
It's actually rather unlikely that any current dialect of American English has any strict correspondence to the various dialects that were spoken in America at the time of the Revolution.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIZgw09CG9E
Which has an accent thought to have remained unchanged since Colonial times.
"She's a beautiful girl"
Italian: E` una bella ragazza.
Venetian Dialect (at least one version of it): Xe na bea tosa.
Lots of words change, and even the grammar a bit. Indeed, with many italian "dialects" it's quite likely that they evolved from Latin on their own, rather than there being some standard "Italian" that then diverged.
It's really amazing, too, how much it changes over short distances - I can't hear it myself, I don't speak it that well, but you can ride an hour by bicycle from here and people recognize that you're from over there...
Edit: another good bit of dialect would be appropriate for the comment by Mark_Book below, "xe un mona".
On top of developing independently from the Latin, the dialects where heavily influenced by the different dominations each part of Italy had. North-west dialects for example have a strong French influence while in south Italy the influence is more Spanish.
The difference is probably about as pronounced (if not moreso) as the difference between a middle class non-regional East Coast American versus the same on the West Coast.
As a Queesnlander, I find South Australians easiest to pick, slightly more refined vowel sounds, although my fellow cane toads do stand out when I'm at work in Sydney or Melbourne.
It's true, though, it wasn't until I lived overseas that I could start to pick up the differences. And as for the city/country difference, I would say it is more a function of education level than geography.
That said, I think there will be no more divergence in Australian accents because of high population mobility and nationalised TV broadcasting.
I do agree also on the city/country difference being education, you can definitely hear the "country" accent in the outer suburbs of Sydney, for example. Still, it's the best way I could really describe the two, since that's more traditionally where they're from :)
He claims that RP has diverged much more than American English, but only goes on to support this claim with the divergence of the (r) variable. Any other variables that characterize the innovations of RP since American and British English divergence?
- the gas/pass divide: in many British accents pass is pronounced like 'pahs', but gas retains the same vowel as in American accents. gas and pass will basically always rhyme in America, but in Britain it'll depend on where you are. In RP they won't rhyme. In the 18th century, it was the same sound everywhere, the one Americans retained.
- the long o, in words like go, home, etc. changed in many British accents from [ou] to [eu]. If you can imagine a very "British", RP pronunciation of home, that's the difference you hear.
Hollands and Flemish come from Middle Dutch which is exactly the same Language Group as Middle English.
For example, there was a time when the K in words like "knee" and "knight" became silent. We can pinpoint this time by looking for Ks in front of words, that never used to start with K. The writer doesn't pronounce the K in "kn" any longer, but remembers that proper spelling has a K for some words. Since pronunciation doesn't help, she has to rote learn those words. And occasionally will make a mistake.
Another one, especially in fairly recent times, is too look for prescriptive texts, that lament this or that development in the language.
In Julius Caesar, Shakespeare makes a pun which only works if "Rome" is pronounced like "room".
Also, in Henry IV, Part One, there's a pun resting on the similarity of "reason" and "raisin".
Americans in 1776 did have British accents in that American accents and British accents hadn’t yet diverged. That’s not too surprising.
Really? Because that surprises the hell out of me. Americans were an ocean away from Britain for maybe a century before 1776, and the accents still hadn't diverged?
New England was settled by a different group of English than various parts of the South. Therefore the dialects were already different before they came here.
Cars have boots (not the American trunks), but they're smaller than trucks (not the British lorries).
Caribbean English accents also remind me of Scottish.
I wonder if there were certain areas of the British Empire that had disproportionate Scottish influence.
http://www.amazon.com/Mother-Tongue-Bill-Bryson/dp/038071543...
Routes of English: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/routesofenglish/
Free vs Three has been a constant battle for me. I found these extremely difficult to differentiate aurally and three very hard to make orally. This was a constant source of me being corrected throughout school.
British people can certainly tell the difference and I've learnt it well enough to make the difference in pronunciation and to hear it enough to teach it to my son and correct him - he doesn't appear to have my problem with it (he's in infant school).
Chav English and other dialects ignore the difference.
The New World-Old World divergence also applies to French speakers in Quebec. If you take their perfect French from Montreal to Paris, to the Parisians much of it sounds like an antiquated form of French. I suppose it's equivalent to the way King James or Shakespearean English sounds antiquated to us now.
That being said, one shouldn't be deceived into thinking that there is a single Canadian English dialect or accent -- we have a number of regional variants. The upper crust of both Ontario and Quebec (the former Upper and Lower Canada) both spoke with an essentially North American vocabulary and a "mid-Atlantic" accent (the sort of halfway meeting between RP and mid-American that, say, Deutche Welle would use for its English-language world news service). The lower classes in the same provinces were, like the American south, far more heavily influenced by Cornish, Kentish, Geordie, Scots and Scottish and Irish gaelic -- but without the black feedback loop. Nova Scotia has several accents, ranging from the heavily Gaelic Cape Breton to the German Lunenberg. Newfoundland "English" is a language of its own -- the accent is a Gaelic-heavy mix, but the grammar is very much Irish Gaelic. British Columbia speaks an odd mix of SoCal and Pacific Northwest with a tiny tinge of RP in the mix. Manitoba and Saskatchewan are essentially indistinguishable from rural Pennsylvania, but for an odd metre that leaked in from the local aboriginal languages. And, well, Alberta is a State at heart -- I don't think an American would have any difficulty picking out the new economic immigrants to that province from the natives in a sentence or two. There is a lot of overlap between political borders, of course, but there are several distinct regional dialects.