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Comment by Sir_Substance | Hacker News Reader

>Young millennial male, every single person I know uses Venmo.

Young millennial male, I'd never heard of this thing until now. These things tend to be emblematic of poor local banking infrastructure. This reminds me a lot of echocash[1].

[1] https://www.econet.co.zw/ecocash/

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Distinctly non-millennial, creaky, grumpy middle aged fart here: venmo (and Google wallet) are great. Paying the babysitter? 10 seconds to find out their venmo username. Check that the picture looks right, send. Much easier than the alternative US bank-based solutions such as popmoney. Much less hassle than keeping cash around.

Maybe it's a regional thing? Almost no-one here uses Venmo. I mentioned it around my friends the other day and they'd never even heard of it. 2-3 people at my office use it semi-regularly but that's how they are--trying out almost any new app for anything. For all I know they've dropped it and are on to something else now.

If I tried to pay anyone with it I can guarantee they'd say (a more polite version of) "WTF is that? No. Do you have money? Try money."

Where are you?

It's really mostly a US problem, because of how hard wire transfers are to do here, compared to most other countries. All these services are basically wire transfers done right.

And in some other countries the banks aren't incompetent and have simply implemented the same thing themselves. Sweden has free wire transfers that take half a business day but despite this the banks still got together and implemented a free, instant, payment-via-phone-number app https://medium.com/@etiennebr/swish-the-secret-swedish-finte...

I believe Venmo is US-only. Determining whether the US has poor local banking infra is left as an exercise to the reader. ;)

It does. (European, lived 8 years in the US in 2 installments of 4 years each).

In what way? Is small, easy P2P payments a solved problem in Europe?

Bank transfer. No fees, fast enough (at least inside a country next business day, I think internationally it's allowed to be a bit slower?), if you want to do it mobile there are enough banks that have apps.

I can do bank transfers from my bank, but I feel awkward saying, "hey, can I get your routing and account number?" Even if I didn't feel awkward, with Venmo and Square Cash, I have all the information I need if either we're FB friends or have their email address.

Not an issue here (at least not in my circles, I couldn't even name any app like Venmo that's available here. Maybe Paypal has features like that by now, I see advertisements from them occasionally, but it never has come up, so I guess figuring out what apps the others use would be more hassle)

>Even if I didn't feel awkward, with Venmo and Square Cash, I have all the information I need if either we're FB friends or have their email address.

Unless you want to send money to someone who isn't using those services.

For sure. But almost everyone I know has one or the other, if not both. That kennitala system sounds really cool, especially if people are conditioned to pass around their account number.

I just found that when I would try to send electronic checks here, people got weird about handing over their routing and account numbers. Sometimes I would even say, "You know, the numbers that are on every check you've ever issued." Didn't matter, there was still some weirdness about it.

That's definitely part of why I like Venmo and Square Cash. It's much closer to a unilateral transaction.

>That kennitala system sounds really cool, especially if people are conditioned to pass around their account number.

>I just found that when I would try to send electronic checks here, people got weird about handing over their routing and account numbers.

I think that uncertainty is definitely part of the problem. The criticality of keeping an SSN secret whilst paradoxically sometimes having to have it on hand to give to specific authorized people seems like a recipe for paranoia.

The honest truth is I don't know if US bank account numbers need to be kept secret. I would hope not, but I also wouldn't be that surprised if someone told me they did. I can understand people taking a defensive stance, but the fact that there is space for services like Venmo to exist is a direct sign that US banks are dropping the ball. Sending money between eachother more easily than using cash is practically the reason banks were invented (although certainly not the reason they are so big right now[1]).

That wouldn't bother me so much, except we've already been down this path. Paypal has rubbed it's name into the dirt by using it's position as an unregulated psudobank to "hold funds for investigation" and gather the interest, or to unilaterally close accounts and thus implicitly seize the funds within.

The idea of a vendor-locked payment system taking root really sits ill with me. It could cause major problems with paying rent or receiving wages for people who don't, won't or can't use compatible smartphones.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-09ap6zIB6I

I don't know if US bank account numbers need to be kept secret.

Yeah, they kind of should be since the number is basically all that someone needs in order to print cheques that take money out of a given account. The US has a "pull" system instead of the more secure "push" system in Europe where giving out a bank account number is totally normal (and was back in the day before electronic banking too).

The EU now has a pull system too, thanks to SEPA Direct Debits. The receiver only has to send an XML file to the bank claiming that the client signed a mandate authorizing them. The client does have 13 months to make a claim and get the money back, but it means that one has to carefully read the statements, rather than trust that every transaction was initiated by us.

Well it's not more awkward that the initial "can I have your phone number" or "can I add you on Facebook". You only do it once when you need it and never again.

Also, there's plenty of alternatives, bank transfers are usually the last resort. There's Revolut, Monzo, Ping It...

(UK perspective)

hey, can I get your routing and account number?

Why? That's what they are for.

A bank transfer happens pretty much instantly when I do it (First Direct, UK).

It can occasionally take up to an hour, but it's rare.

Yes. Iceland has a system called the kennitala. It's kind of like a social security number, except not secret.

If you give me your kennitala and your bank account number (10 digits), I can send you any amount of money, no lower limit (there might be an upper one, I haven't tried buying a house GIRO) without paying a fee, regardless of which bank you're with.

When I sign a rental agreement with my landlord, I give him my kennitala and no other details. He sets up a recurring payment request linked to my kennitala. Every month, the bill shows up in my account with a request to pay it, but it's not like a credit card charge, it's merely a request for payment, kind of like the inverse of me inputting my landlords bank details and kennitala myself. I can ignore it if I want to.

Because the kennitala is independent from the bank, I can change banks and my landlords rental bill, along with all my utilities bills, will automatically start showing up on my new account without anyone doing anything.

Canada has Interac e-transfers, which you send to an email or phone number and the user redeems them with their bank. It's a little more friction than tapping a button (you have to set up a pass code for redemption) but it's included with most chequing accounts.

Most banks charge a $1 fee though.

Most UK bank account allow you to pay using a person's phone number instead of account and sort number. Work across (all?) banks and payments are usually instant directly into the account.

Yeah it's called PayM

I've never heard of it except as an obscure Paypal competitor. And, it turns out it's essentially the same service as Paypal and is even owned by Paypal, since 2014.

I agree that services like this only serve to fill gaps in antiquated banking systems. From what I understand, in Australia, for instance, people can send money easily for free between bank accounts and do so routinely without 3rd party services - including paying at stores. Circa 2009, a friend from Adelaide rolled eyes that we still used paper checks in the US. We still do.

I remember checks from the 80s, my mum/dad used to have them. I never owned a check book.

Good for you? Maybe try one sometime: as it turns out, old things are not de facto bad.

if you enjoy keeping a running tally of how much is in your account, and love knowing that what you see when you check your balance at the bank is never up-to-date, checks are great!

man i quit doing that as soon as i could check my balance on the internet and just use a credit/debit card, just make sure you turn off 'overdraft protection' before doing this or you can dig a very deep hole of compound interest.

- signed, an early gen-xer

I use paper checks quite often. A lot of places still don’t take credit cards. Honestly, you don’t need to be a math major or accountant to keep track of how much money you have.

I agree, plus a lot of the best hole in the wall restaurants don't take credit cards.

As a non-American, it surprises me greatly that a restaurant that doesn't take credit cards would happily accept a cheque of all things.

Cards still don't mean your balance is up to date though - did your credit card payment get taken yet, are there any pending transactions? Okay, that's the balance, but what bills are still due to be taken by direct debit, and are there any standing orders?

Using a card isn't some magic solution for someone struggling to manage their personal finances.

Why would old things be bad anyway? That's an IT pop culture myth.

Yes, we're not disagreeing.

I'm a 20-something Australian who is possibly the only 20-something Australian I know who at one point had a chequebook.

The only time I've found cheques useful outside of paying for my rental bond (for which you need a bank cheque anyway) is when I've had to pay for something by posting in a form, and I don't feel like writing down all my credit card details on paper and having them stored rather insecurely.

The only other relatively common uses of cheques I hear of here are using bank cheques to exchange money when privately selling a car. Other than that, cheques are dead. As they should be.

Checks allow float to be used to my advantage.

Would you not consider PayPal one of these things? Definitely Square Cash.

What's an example of local banking infrastructure that helps alleviate the problem of needing to pay people money with ease? I'm not even sure how it works on my Huntington mobile app. I know I could do it fairly painlessly with Simple bank. Except it's really only easy if they're a Simple user I think. Otherwise I'll need to get their physical address which will mail them an actual check, or ask for their routing/checking.

Chase Pay makes it pretty easy I think? But really people who sign up just to use that and attach a non-Chase account are doing the same thing as Square Cash, Paypal, Venmo, etc.

edit: huh, interesting. On a Simple bank FAQ page about paying third parties, it also links some additional services:

https://www.simple.com/help/articles/payments-and-transfers/...

Here are a few common and useful services:

* Google Wallet - https://www.google.com/wallet With Google Wallet, you can send money to anyone in the U.S. with their email address or phone number. You can link your Simple account with your card number or your account and routing numbers.

* PayPal - https://paypal.com PayPal offers a wide variety of services. If you’re planning to use PayPal with your Simple account, here’s what you need to know: We cannot link to Paypal accounts under a business name, since your Simple account is for personal use. Some PayPal services may incur a fee. One thing to keep in mind when linking your Simple account to Paypal is that when you're asked for the bank name, you'll need to enter the name of our partner bank, BBVA Compass, rather than Simple.

* Square Cash - https://cash.me Square Cash allows you to send money for free with your debit card. You don't need a username or a passphrase—just the email address for the person you'd like to pay and your debit card number. Transfers are often instant, but they can take up to 1-2 business days.

* Venmo - https://venmo.com With Venmo, you can send money to friends and even authorize other people to withdraw funds from your Venmo balance. Venmo can be hooked up to Simple with your card number (make sure it's marked as debit, not credit), your bank account number, or both.

* Xoom - https://www.xoom.com Xoom primarily used to send money internationally. They do charge fees, which is typical for this type of service.

In Canada, we have a debit card network called Interac and can use it to send an "e-Transfer" to anyone else with a Canadian bank account using nothing more than their email address or phone number + a shared secret to claim the payment. Some number of free e-Transfers per month is typically included with bank accounts.

Interac solved the P2P payments problem for every social group that I'm in there.

Interac e-Transfers took 10+ min and cost me $1.50 every time I've used them. They're absolute garbage compared to Venmo.

I actually use Venmo in Canada with friends that have US bank accounts because it's still more convenient even having to calculate the exchange rate.

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