Hacker News Reader

Comment by JBReefer | Hacker News Reader

Until recently, most Arizonans also grew English-style grass lawns, with water that had to be piped in and species that are certainly not native.

Apparently that's rapidly ending, so maybe the standard schedule will change as well someday.

View on HN

> Apparently that's rapidly ending, so maybe the standard schedule will change as well someday.

Those hours are pretty ingrained in US culture, though, and virtually no one (compared to the present population) would live in Arizona without massive amounts of air conditioning anyway, whereas conserving water has a direct economic advantage in the here and now.

> virtually no one would live in Arizona without massive amounts of air conditioning

I presume you mean south of Flagstaff. It's actually quite nice in the north :)

I wouldn't say most Arizona homeowners had grass lawns, as far as Phoenix goes, there are districts such as arcadia that have very large lawns, but I would say that is limited to specific areas.

There are many plants that are not native that still grow very well ranging from Mediterranean species to some that are from the desert regions of Asia.

*edit (Thu Jul 20 13:35:05 EDT 2017) I about parts of Chandler and Gilbert still have water rights tied to the property.

You fly into Phoenix and the rampant waste and misuse of water is obvious. All those lawns and pools sitting idly by while Arizona (and California) drink far too deeply from the Colorado and other rivers.

Arizona has always managed its water supply far better than California. And a flyover is misleading, most houses have natural yards and the lawns are all special summer grass adapted to the heat.

>special summer grass adapted to the heat.

My point is how much water does it take even for that. If what you were saying is true, I'd expect to see that grass growing all over Phoenix and it would be green rather than red.

It does consume water, but again we manage our water well. I think most people are under the mistaken impression that fresh water is in short supply. The problem is that our water supplies could easily be a free market while still being ecologically friendly. They could easily limited to reusable and naturally refreshed sources, and not drain rivers like the Colorado below safe levels. Market prices would ensure water was used efficiently.

But instead California gave away massive free water rights to landowners who use it to farm in their deserts. Over 90% of their fresh water is given to farmers to grow crops a little cheaper than farmers in other states who aren't raping water supplies, and so bad farming and water usage drives out good.

While that's a real problem it seems to me like agriculture is a better use of a scarce resource than lawns.

Don't forget the people who have painted their dirt/rocks green. From the air, it'd look like grass. (from the street - not so much)

With the invention of air conditioning and an abundance of solar power during the desert day, it's pretty stupid to let the weather dictate your behavior.

People exist in Chicago despite the fact that it would be completely inhospitable without heating sources. The only difference is that air conditioning is a newer invention so people like you view it as some kind of opulent luxury rather than a technological tool like anything else.

You're comparing 2 different things though. Heating/AC is required for people's survival whereas green lawns in the middle of an arid desert... not so much.

No I'm not. I'm literally comparing air conditioning to heating. Read my comment again.

> With the invention of air conditioning and an abundance of solar power during the desert day, it's pretty stupid to let the weather dictate your behavior.

Not everyone works in an office, though.

Same thing applies to the cold in the North.

Try to go out with 45 degrees, with direct sunlight, etc. Some people will even faint within minutes. Because remember you don't get teleported to the shop, you have to walk.

I'm from a much milder but still hot climate, and while the summer weather probably wouldn't make you faint in minutes, people spent very little time outside of air conditioned homes, cars, and shops, and the towns were designed around that fact.

It was 48 degrees in Phoenix a couple weeks ago. We all walked around outside successfully without fainting.

I congratulate you to a good health. Here in sweden people drop dead when temp goes above 25 C. All depends on your health...

Phoenix is not even in the same conversation as Spanish cities when it comes to walking. Madrid, Barcelona and others you walk everywhere to do anything.

have spent much time in 110+ degree weather - you just have to hydrate.

What's the humidity there though? In much of the Southern US, we get temps well above 100 with very high levels of humidity. Even with hydration it is dangerous.

As they say about Phoenix, "it's a dry heat". It's near 20% humidity during peak sunlight during the day. I've been there in really hot summer weather and I was surprised by how really high temperatures didn't feel as hot as I was expecting. To give you an idea of how much this matters, in a gentle breeze, 39.5 C at 20% humidity feels like 57.3 C at 90% humidity.

People definitely don't faint within minutes in a typical Phoenix sunlight. The biggest risks are sunburn and dehydration, both of which take a lot longer.

> To give you an idea of how much this matters, in a gentle breeze, 39.5 C at 20% humidity feels like 57.3 C at 90% humidity.

That cannot possibly be correct.

Humidity has a massive multiplication effect on both cold and hot temperatures.

I would take 110F dry over 80F humid any day. I would also take 10F dry over 30F humid.

The prior claim was that, in a gentle breeze, 135F and 90% RH was the same as 103F and 20% RH (that hotter AND more humid was the same as less hot and drier).

Sorry, I meant to say that 57.3 C at 20% humidity feels the same as 39.5 C at 90% humidity.

I have in the Phoenix and Death Valley deserts. I think you don't understand the difference between low humidity heat and high humidity heat. The latter is intolerable and causes the problems you described. The former just requires adequate hydration.

> With the invention of air conditioning and an abundance of solar power during the desert day, it's pretty stupid to let the weather dictate your behavior.

You do have to go outside to get anywhere. We don't have completely domed cities yet.

We sort of do. My 20 mile commute in Seattle involves about 100 feet of walking outside the "dome". I go from my house to my attached garage into my car. To the park-n-ride. From there I walk to the bus. Then ride the bus downtown, where i then walk half a block to my office.

Same thing applies to the cold in Chicago/New York.

Sounds like a decent chunk of the population could deal with living on a Mars colony :)

Reply on news.ycombinator.com