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Comment by JohnTHaller | Hacker News Reader

One additional cause of new Chrome installs taking over from Firefox: bundleware. Chrome is foisted upon users as install-by-default bundleware when users install or update lots of different apps, especially free antivirus apps on Windows. Just clicking "Continue" when your free antivirus on Windows updates will cause Chrome to be installed and set as the default browser. Here's an image of Avast tricking you into installing Chrome: http://imgur.com/hNZLbmL

I've had to fix this for three family members previously as they were using a free antivirus and couldn't figure out why their browser looked different and didn't have an ad-blocker now.

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I'm actually kinda glad that Windows 10 forces the user to be very explicit when changing the default browser. Yeah, they use it to push Edge, of course. Better than programs changing it without the user knowing.

Exactly. Though I wouldn't be surprised if Chrome finds a way around it. Chrome adds itself pinned to the taskbar as it installs even though Microsoft guidelines explicitly forbid it and it is purposely a little difficult to do.

If they found a way around it, Microsoft would patch it out, certainly. But I doubt it.

Chrome was the first app I saw that found the technical way around to force taskbar pinning. Microsoft, sadly, didn't patch that out.

I think they must have recently fixed this, in Win 10 Pro at least. I installed Win 10 Pro yesterday, then Chrome and it did not automatically pin itself. Actually, if I remember correctly it even had a message at one point during the install describing how to pin it.

It is fairly easy to disable this functionality. I have seen at least one app do this already.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.winhelponline.com/blog/edge-h...

Ironic that this comment highlights another annoying Google thing. Looks like a link to Google.com but it's an amp page.

Why is it ironic that a company that does one thing that annoys you also does another thing that annoys you?

Just to clarify, did you mean that pinning something to the taskbar is a little difficult, or did I misunderstand? It is very simple to pin something to the taskbar, requiring only one right click and one left click. That's why I thought maybe I misunderstood your question. I was just curious. And I completely agree it's stupid the Chrome doesn't even respect Microsoft developer guidelines. It's normal behavior for Chrome or any other Shmoogle crapware lol!

As scummy as those installs are, it highlights Google's killer advantage: money. It generates so much cash from advertising that it can pay any company for more distribution (even Firefox!), which in turn generates more cash... Unstoppable until anti-trust kicks in.

In addition to Chrome's bundling deals which override your default browser settings, major Windows updates now appear to reset your default browser to Edge every time.

Yep. This is super-scummy behavior. No surprise Google and Microsoft engage in it!

Ahhhh I was wondering why my desktop suddenly started opening links in Edge!

Good grief.

But that's not fair, Google's already paid for that install! ;)

Does this actually happen? I recently installed the big Windows 10 "Creators update" and my default browser remained exactly the same (Chrome), or is this something that depends on what "tier" of Windows 10 you have?

I remember this unfortunately happening on Windows 7/8 upgrades to 10, but I've yet to encounter it on my personal machine in a Win 10 point release, at least as far as I can recall.

I know lots of settings get reset when you get new Insider builds. It annoyed me constantly. Perhaps OP is on those?

Oddly enough, Windows 10 Pro seems to leave my default browser alone most of the time (I do seem to recall it messing with it once, but I may be wrong), but I've had it attempt to switch my default media viewers away from VLC and Irfanview multiple times. Quite annoying.

That is because they still haven't fully adopted "new" file format association APIs (introduced with Windows 7).

Likely related to the feeling that Windows 10 resets file associations is that Windows 10 changed the way this data is stored and restores the default value if the registry keys are manipulated directly.[1] As a side-note, I don't think any of the major updates have reset my browser choice, but I have gotten an irritating pop-up suggesting that I should try Edge.

[1] https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/oldnewthing/20170517-00/?p=...

Isn't that in direct opposition to their EU antitrust settlement? How does MS get away with this?

I'm actually wondering more how Google is getting away with those screenshots from the submission. That's exactly the same behavior that it was recently fined for wrt product search.

One reason might be that EU doesn't have many browser vendors who would put in a official complaint.

Why wouldn't MS complain? If MS can be good for anything, helping keep Google in check ranks #1 on my list.

They reached a deal last year to stop complaining to regulators about each other:

https://www.recode.net/2016/4/22/11586336/microsoft-google-a...

This should be proof of illegal collusion and grounds for a gigantic fine for each of them. It's just like the no-poaching agreement they got in trouble with a few years ago.

That would require the US to have a functioning justice department.

IANAL, but I think that would count as "compelling speech" ("You MUST complain to regulators about each other!") which is explicitly forbidden in the States (not sure about Europe, but I think it's the same).

We're not talking about individuals here, we're talking about corporations. Collusion between companies for the sake of negatively affecting the market (such as establishing a cartel) is illegal in any jurisdiction with proper, functioning laws. As I mentioned before, this is similar to the no-poaching agreement which they got into trouble (not nearly enough though) before.

Lobbying and corruption ? At the very least they have friends at the right places.

They probably only do it outside of EU.

That was my first thought from those screenshots as well. They are the dominant web portal for the world with more views than Facebook. Their position gives them a crazy advantage in the browser wars.

Firefox pulling ahead of IE back in the early 2000s was a sign of open source disruption taking on a monopoly:

https://xkcd.com/198/

Chrome is the total opposite; well at least initially. They pumped millions into Mozilla and then took the parts they liked from Gecko and Webkit and created Chrome. Originally closed source, even though we have the open source Chromium today, most people used the official Google branded and integrated version.

I feel like with Microsoft and IE and the anti-trust cases from back in the day, we're see a return to what the author termed web browser 'monoculture.' The author does make a point that at least Chrome isn't stuck in the past.

Chrome, FireFox and Edge all seem to be doing the rolling release thing today, which is vital to us not getting stuck in IE6 land again. (Not sure if Safari does this yet). I've recently started using Vivaldi, but I do miss my dedication to Firefox and all the years of usage, plugins and bug reports.

If I remember, wasn't the version installed by Avast a custom chromium fork until relatively recently? Then there was some security issue, and google basically stop the AV's to knock it off? I think Comodo also did something like this too, though theirs was more of a mess, because Comodo.

EDIT: Found it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11057532

Sometimes. The screenshot I showed was when Avast specifically offered me Chrome. Not the Comodo Chrome knockoff. Avast offers up different things at different times depending on who is paying what. Chrome has been bundleware with a ton of software.

I recall even the standalone flash installer coming with Chrome bundled (or at least pushing for it) at one point.

Indeed, I'll never forget how my first exposure to Chrome came as a result of updating Flash and finding that it had not only installed Chrome, but set it as my default browser. That was the day that I began weaning myself off of Google services (still don't know if I'll ever make it off of Gmail, though...).

The irony is that Chrome bundles (Pepper) Flash, so a Firefox user would download the Flash installer, which downloads the NPAPI Flash plugin, Chrome, and Chrome's Pepper Flash plugin. The NPAPI Flash plugin would be downloaded but never used after the Flash installer changed the user's default browser to Chrome.

Flash is now significantly broken on Firefox under Ubuntu anyway (Bugzilla #1374559) and it's been classified as a wontfix (P5), so continuing the irony, downloading Chrome is probably closer to what the user wanted to do.

> closer to what the user wanted to do

This happened years and years ago, and it wasn't long after that I decided that I didn't want Flash installed on my computer ever again. :P Sad that Shumway didn't manage to pan out, though.

Yahoo mail is unlimited, has a sane folder structure, and in spite of the fear-mongering, is less likely to be attacked than GMail nowadays.

I got off Gmail back around 2013. Unfortunately it's made my e-mail even more unreliable than back when I uses Google's shitty e-mail service:

http://penguindreams.org/blog/how-google-and-microsoft-made-...

The hardest part about switching from Gmail is simply the time it takes to migrate all your accounts over to the new address.

Some providers offer a switching service though.

My three email providers don't (Kolab, Posteo, Autistici) but the few hours I spent changing my email addresses everywhere was worth it.

Gmail really doesn't offer anything you'll miss once you make the switch.

AVG also started doing this recently. I get a lot calls from family members and friends who aren't tech-savvy and can't differentiate between browsers. They think their "bookmarks" disappeared but the true reason is Chrome was bundled with something (e.g. AVG) and replaced Firefox as default browser. I called AVG on twitter but their answer was just typical PR BS: "We're sorry for your inconvenience. Please remember that you can opt-out from this". Yeah, they have clean hands because they put very small checkbox in very small font in installer.

https://unchecky.com/

While I don't agree with the technique, I would certainly not call it "tricking". Especially in your example, where it very clearly (more than most) describes what will happen if the boxes remain checked. People who blindly click "next", "ok", or "continue" buttons are tricking themselves, not being tricked. Especially when dealing with "free" software.

If the title of the page was "Would you also like to install Chrome and make it your default browser?" with a Yes and No button, then it wouldn't be a trick. Instead, the title of the page is "Complete your Avast program update" and the button is "Continue". Then, in very small letters in the lower left, it says what it's really going to do. This design is called a dark pattern and it is quite literally designed to trick you while remaining technically legal and "upfront" about what it is doing.

Yes, it is less scummy than burying it in an EULA and giving the user basically no notice, but it is still really scummy.

Does anyone know why they do this? Do they earn some extra money per each Chrome install or something like that?

Google is paying the app makers for the bundleware per install.

When other companies are doing this, we're usually pretty quick to call it by a different name: spyware, malware.

Bundleware makes it sound like it's just some innocent "bloat", while in reality this effectively hijacks all web traffic of innocent users and sends it to Google.

How is this not criminal?

As a web developer, I'm actually quite fine with this. Considering your family members probably fall under the "potential IE users" category.

All of them were using an up-to-date copy of Firefox previously with ad and tracker blocking configured with exceptions for their financial sites and with Flash configured to automatically update via Windows service as well.

It is frightening that as a web developer you lack the comprehension of why a single dominant browser is quite bad for the web. Have considered a career change, maybe growing vegetables is something you'd be good at.

I think the parent is saying that's it preferable to IE being that one single browser.

And honestly, your reply was childish and and a bit douche-bag-ish.

There's no need for this here - (I assume) we're all adults, and don't need to resort to playground tactics.

(If you actually are under 16, then I take the above and I'm sorry - welcome to HN!)

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