The Curious Comeback of the Dreaded QR Code | Hacker News Reader

The Curious Comeback of the Dreaded QR Code

wired.com

26 pointsohjeez59 comments

This article gets many things wrong. First, I don't understand why they call QR codes "dreaded". They are simply a standard for communication, not unlike writing down an http:// URL in human-readable text.

> Don't look now, but QR codes have begun to creep back. They have different names now—Snap Codes and Spotify Codes and Messenger Codes and Other Things Codes—and a much improved sense of style, but the idea hasn't changed.

Snapchat ID codes and Facebook Messenger ID codes are NOT based on QR Code technology. They don't look remotely the same. My guess is that they are proprietary and have no published standard. Because of their geometry and layout, they both probably have much lower raw information density than QR codes.

What's funny is that in China QR codes are commonly called by the generic name of 二維條碼 (two-dimensional barcodes), but the Wired article makes the opposite mistake of calling every 2D barcode as "QR Code".

However, note that WeChat/Weixin/微信 2D barcodes are valid QR codes. (The picture in the middle is treated as a correctable error.)

>They are simply a standard for communication, not unlike writing down an http:// URL in human-readable text.

So why not encode that data in a human readable format? I think it's the same argument as a binary storage format vs. plaintext. Sure you gain a slight bit of efficiency on the application side of things. But the decreased portability and ease of use is usually not worth the trade-off.

I'm going to give the article a pass on this. They explain the genesis of the Snapchat dot codes. They don't explicitly say that the FB and snapchat codes are based on QR, they do genericize the term QR a bit, but that is all.

The problem is of course barcode isn't quite right either. The term 2D or Matrix codes never really caught on (of course the FB symbol isn't a matrix code either).

Further, the "dreaded" is a bit of poorly worded editorializing. But I recall a few years ago when they started popping up, that whily maybe not dreaded, people thought they were a stupid gimmick (for all the reasons mentioned in the article) and many times intrusive or tasteless. Dreaded similar to fucking blue LEDs. That is, to say, Blue LEDs are useful, but it was damn fucking annoying when a bright one was put on damn everything they didn't belong.

Our software uses QR codes for inventory tracking. They're absolutely wonderful - you can store loads of data in a format that's very easily parsed by handheld scanning devices. So much data that you can completely do away with having to call out to a central database for item information, as you do with bar codes.

QR codes are great, and I never understood why they're treated as such a joke.

I think they're great too, but they don't hold more info (per unit area) than other types of symbology like, for example, datamatrix. If you really want to stuff tons of data in the symbol itself, you need PDF417. That can be scanned by a specialized line scanner (admittedly not convenient for phone cameras)

QR codes often encode URL's/URI's and the application typically hits up a database upon scanning them just like any other inventory barcode.

It is not clear whether these statements are true.

* QR codes mandate a minimum of 15% area used for error correction and a maximum of 60%.

* Data Matrix codes mandate a minimum of 0% area used for error correction and a maximum of 50%.

* The amount of overhead in QR codes (finders, timing, alignment) is probably in the same ballpark as Data Matrix codes (black lines, checkered lines).

* PDF417 codes demand low vertical resolution (e.g. 15 thick steps) but high horizontal resolution (e.g. 200 thin steps). They are hard to scan on a phone camera. Although this thick-thin design is appropriate for line scanners, the asymmetry in horizontal-vertical information density leads to poor information density overall and higher susceptibility to damage and unreadable barcodes. Square primitive blocks make sense because they are more spatially balanced.

Datamatrix uses ECC200 almost always. In practice, especially for phone-reader applications, the limiting factor for data transmission is not the symbology choice (datamatrix/QR) but limitations from the camera.

That said dense 2D barcodes read by dedicated imagers in controlled lighting scenarios, as far as I've seen, are always datamatrix. Not sure if that's merely historical or if there's a technical reason for that.

We were just in the the trough of disillusionment.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle

Maybe i am completely out of the WXSW loop but when did QR become a joke?

To me it always seemed like a nice and simple piece of tech.

Like, forever: http://picturesofpeoplescanningqrcodes.tumblr.com/

They just never caught on in the west - but for a while at least they were popular in Japan (maybe they still are).

For me if I see a QR code and there's also a printed url then I'll just google it faster than finding my qr app. If it was more complex data than that it might be useful but I'm looking in my QR code history and I don't see them being used for anything but simple links.

Yeah, the urls were dumb for sure, but communicating cryptographic keys is a pretty great and common use for them.

Authenticator keys, Bitcoin addresses, wallet backup, setting up keys for things like Signal's desktop client, etc. All seem like great uses for QR codes to me.

I know someone that would actually go out of their way to scan those QR codes for contests for the simple reason that nobody ever does and they'd often win prizes by default.

And China also, the Weechat app uses them for so much: paying at restaurants, adding contacts, etc.

For explicit data transfer (e.g. point of sale payment, Bitcoin address exchange) they work well.

For marketing they're stupid.

So we let one (ab)use of it tar and feather the whole technology in the social sphere. Gotta love how we approach tech these days...

What I mean is it's useful when people aren't being punched in the face with them. A QR code to pay for things makes sense. For consumers it's "scan this thing and it transfers", not unlike a tap. In that mode it's a transparent technology. Nobody needs to know what an RFID chip is, or what NFC means. They're all "tap to pay" or "tap to open door".

For other applications where the QR code itself is grandstanding as being somehow important or novel it's ridiculous. In other words, anything that says "Scan our QR code" is an automatic fail because you'll have to open a special app to read it, not the payment app that just happens to use them as a method of data exchange.

Ah yes, Tumblr. I rest my case...

I think you are indeed out of the loop, as this has been a punchline for several years now and is often mentioned in HN threads discussing QR Codes:

http://picturesofpeoplescanningqrcodes.tumblr.com/

I myself have never seen or heard of anyone actually using a QR code. However I read with great interest the HN thread two days ago about how cashless purchasing is done in China with wechat and QR codes, etc.

This is all relevant to my interests as "Oh By"[1], a project I am working on, is (among other things) a replacement for QR Codes.

[1] https://0x.co

Yea last time we went back to China to visit relatives, every other person we saw in a store or restaurant was buying by using a qr code. People rented bicycles using qr codes.

It definitely did. People use it everywhere in advertising where it has no use.

It's useful for other things, like scanning wifi passwords, or inventory tracking. Actually that's about it.

I don't even understand the "comback". As far as I've seen it, they've been and still are quite popular in Asia.

5-6 years ago when it seemed like every ad/poster ha a stupid QR code on it for no apparent reason.

And so one kind of (ab)use gets to dictate our entire perception of the tech? Are we really that shallow?

When that is 90% of people's only exposure to it? Yes, that does negatively impact people's perception of tech.

they're often used for contact information, especially URLs. however, common programs that can read qr codes can also read the same contact info when presented as text. the choice become presenting the data in a way both the user and the computer can read, or in a way only the computer can read.

they do have good uses, but contact info is not one.

>> QR codes, it turns out, were just ahead of their time.

No they weren't, they were given a bad reputation because their use in ad campaigns, where they were exclusively deployed as a tool to con people into actively viewing more ads, dwarfed other uses in both number and visibility to the average person. Google did exactly the same thing to the reputation of its own product (Glass) in a similar way - by trying to convince people that it was going to be something that everyone was going to wear all the time.

It makes sense that they're becoming more popular now that they're not being used in ads so much anymore, and instead being used for games and other features that actually do things users want to do.

Surprised they didn't mention cryptocurrencies at all here. Scanning QR codes to enter an address when making a transaction is pretty much the only feasible option I know of. Manually entering a very long random string is too much of a hassle, especially if you'd want to do real-world transactions.

"Scanning QR codes to enter an address when making a transaction is pretty much the only feasible option I know of. Manually entering a very long random string is too much of a hassle, especially if you'd want to do real-world transactions."

You can use an Oh By Code.[1]

From the "HN FAQ":[2]

"You don't need any software or tools to create them. You don't need a reader or an app to read them. You can write them down anywhere with any pencil, pen, chalk, etc. As of the launch of 0x.co, there is no longer any reason to ever use a QR code again. You're welcome."

[1] https://0x.co

[2] There is a FAQ but also a "HN FAQ" with more technical, implementation-minded Q&A: https://0x.co/hnfaq.html

That’s basically an URL shortener without the URL part. A centralized service to store all your codes and the logs of all accesses. In short, a twitter for pastebin. No thanks.

Store all your messages with a random site, what could possibly go wrong?

"Store all your messages with a random site, what could possibly go wrong?"

We don't think of it as storage - although you can indeed use it as such. We think of it as messaging. Oh By gives you a way to send messages to unknown people at unknown future dates which don't require any special tooling (apps) to decode.

You can just take a piece of chalk and write your message on the sidewalk.

As for longevity, I think we have a good track record having run rsync.net for 16 years now.

"That’s basically an URL shortener without the URL part."

Close. It is an everything shortener.

URLs are indeed something you could shorten, and I would argue that it is the best URL shortener because it has no javascript, tracking, login, etc. and no ads/delay on redirect.

But I don't know how relevant or useful URL shortening is in 2017.

As for logs of accesses, you are right to be cautious and be mindful of your risk profile / threat model. However, it's worth noting that you can create Oh By Codes completely anonymously.

"Twitter for pastebin" - thanks, that's a good line :)

Can someone explain to me what the advantages of QR codes are over bar codes or other similar methods?

* data density (up to 100 times more than barcodes)

* built in error correction (partially marred qr codes can still be used)

* skinable\customizable (embed your logo, change colors, etc )

* 360 degree scanning capability

Barcodes still have their place but the QR code does have some unique properties

The confusing thing about this question is that "other similar methods" includes QR codes [1] -- they're just a generalization of 1-dimensional bar codes to a 2-dimensional matrix, with some error correction and alignment information to make scanning them theoretically more reliable.

They also have native support for some data types, like URLs. Other than that, it's mostly that they have some traction.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barcode#Matrix_.282D.29_barcod...

The amount of information they can hold is especially important in the case of bank transactions. Alipay and Wechat Pay (in China) have QR codes that change every minute. The merchant transaction has to be performed with the current QR code. It's basically a poor man's substitute for the encrypted handshake provided by contactless payment protocols. If someone got your payment QR code they could only abuse it for 1 minute.

I do dislike the use of QR codes for static data, such as a username on business cards and posters. From a design standpoint it looks horrible and busy. I wish those apps had the ability to recognize a logo instead. Or even just a UI to scan and OCR a text username on a business card.

QR codes are much more information-dense than 1D barcodes. Try encoding a string like "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog" (43 ASCII characters) using these tools and seeing how much space they take up:

* https://www.nayuki.io/page/1d-barcode-generator-javascript

* https://www.nayuki.io/page/qr-code-generator-library

I'm assuming the largest advantage is just the amount of data they can hold. One of the top google results[1] indicates that 1d bar codes can hold ~100 characters, while 2d ones can hold ~2000 characters.

There is also a bit of artistic freedom you can do with the 2d ones. They really aren't as ugly as the 1d ones. Especially if you use them to "frame" something. Note, still not pretty, per se. Just not as ugly.

[1] http://support.idautomation.com/Barcode-Learning/How-much-da...

Animated GIF qr code https://github.com/sylnsfar/qrcode

I always thought bar codes and QR codes both looked kind of pretty, in a glitch-art way.

It can store various data formats, eg. vcard. You scan it and save every phone number, email, etc immediately. Or WiFi credetials, including both the network and the password: scan, tick, connected.

1. Denser (ie, more information per unit area)

2. More redundant (ie, more surface area can be destroyed and still be able to recover the original message)

QR codes are making a blip comeback mainly because people have their cameras on more for augmented reality and computer vision will be more and more used.

Before you had to actually open up an app to scan one, now you might already be in an app that is constantly scanning for AR targets, UPC, QR codes etc. In a few apps we have done that use AR for retail they look for AR targets/trackers, cloud targets, marks, UPC, qr codes, and more.

Along those lines, Vuforia AR has VuMarks[1] that are replacements for their framemarker targets (similar to QR codes) that are further on the mark detection.

With augmented experiences we'll definitely be scanning more with cameras already on in the future. So there will be more marks/scannables out there.

[1] https://library.vuforia.com/articles/Training/VuMark

Phone OS's not having built-in QR code readers suppressed the usefulness of QR codes. It was maybe for security reasons, if so that also points to a problem with the protocol.

The only way it would be a security risk would be if it tossed the content right into a browser or similar.

It it was presented in plain text for the user to see before taking any action, there would be no more risk than any other printed URL (unless the very scanning app has issues, but then that is a very different rabbit hole).

iOS 11 will include QR code support in the native camera app.

QR codes are just (ugly) reminders that we still haven't figured out how to do optical character recognition.

You're scanning a human-readable QR code right now.

How can something that never left .. come back?

Context. They're not so wide-spread in some countries (perhaps the America-centric countries) and yet still quite extant throughout the rest of the world. Local context is everything.

So... silicon valley is copying China? Nice.

BTW QR codes are awesome, no sarcasm.

QR codes originate from Japan.

Robot barf on everything.

Sure, mate, robot. And it's kind of the case: if you read the article it starts with when x in 2014 in China ... WeChat...

WeChat doesn't always have a QR code showing. The idea is it shows up when you need it. If NFC takes over some day, so long QR codes.

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