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It's small cultural differences. In the UK, the most dreaded crime you can do is cutting in the queue — while in other countries, while still frowned upon, this is not a big deal. Here in Switzerland, if you dare to get your trash out to someone else's container and get caught in the act, you are royally screwed — while people in other countries can't get it, trash is still getting out by waste management services, why so much drama? And once in the US, I accidentally suggested that the US might not be the greatest country in the world in some aspects. Well, I didn't repeat this mistake ever again.

Can you expand the 'not the greatest country anecdote' ? I am moving to SF soon (from France) and while the US have great opportunities for techies, I find it the 'best country in the world' mantra laughable.

(it applies to pretty much any country though .. which norm (in the mathematical sense) are you using exactly ? I don't think there is one and only one.

This might help: http://i8.tinypic.com/6h89yes.gif

It works with other countries, too, eg. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/12/27/22/12272295f...

(note: comment intended to be "funny".)

Such things are to be memorized, not analyzed. Just don't do it, and you'll be fine. Many Americans don't actually think that America is the greatest country is in the world in all regards, but this is simply not a topic for foreigners to discuss.

And well, you in France also have your share of quirks. When I am in the US, and my English is less than perfect, everybody is still happy to continue conversation with me, encouraging me to speak, and generally very friendly and helpful. While if I am in France, and my French is less than perfect... well, usually I am getting a different treatment. (And heavens forbid me to start a conversation with anything else than bonjour or bonsoir!)

> this is simply not a topic for foreigners to discuss

Heavily ironic when this applies in the country of freedom.

> but this is simply not a topic for foreigners to discuss.

For any "outsiders" lurking here... discuss it! You'll take a social hit from certain types of people but future generations will thank you.

Having lived in various countries that seem to be able to handle critique quiet okay, it'd be a really pitty to just shy away from it in the US. A boastful bully often needs to hear that they are not the most fantastic person in the world. I mean, good self estime is great but so is some humility, even when it comes from the "outside". Actually it's often the person from the outside that is the only one to see the difference starkly enough.

The weird thing is I often get asked what I think of the US by Americans whenever I go over (I'm British).

Now I have a very positive impression of the US overall, but it seems strange to ask a question in casual conversation might not like the answer to.

People ask what I think of my host country everywhere I lived. I think we all can't help but to ask. When I'm asked by locals in EU countries I lived most ask with so much humility and uncertainty I'm worried of my answer. But in the US and the Israeli Territories the locals tend to ask with little humility. They are both politically muddy countries so I guess I understand why they would be defensive. And often when I'm asked by EU nationals about my time living in the US it's to reaffirm their sense of moral placement in the world ("well at least we aren't as bad as the americans"). And when EU nationals ask about my time living in the Israeli Territories, they hide all opinion and motive lest they be called anti-semetic.

Anyway, asking these things I guess is pretty universal.

Well, it's fine if you don't think the U.S. Is the best, just don't make a point about it. It's not so much that Americans don't think America has faults, we just mostly love our country and take offense if you criticize it the wrong way. I love France but it certainly has its fair share of problems, for example, but I don't go around arguing with The French if they say they love France and it's the greatest place. It's just non-productive.

Also in SF you'll get a bunch of self-hating people who haven't traveled much who think the U.S. sucks, just like in Alabama you'd get a bunch of irrationally pro-America people who haven't traveled much and don't see why the U.S. can suck with certain things.

The difference is that I don't think any Frenchman would describe France as the greatest place on earth.

So... if I were to meet you somewhere in the US and tell you "wow, the train is so slow here, in France the TGV goes at 300 km/h, here it's only X!", would that make you (or others) angry?

I'm from Canada, living in the US and married to a native for the last 13 years or so.

Before Trump got elected I would always get an angry glare and trigger defensive responses whenever I'd point out some aspect of the US that I felt could be improved or was lacking when compared to how things are in Canada.

After Trump it's a bit different. I think his election has been a bit of an eye opener for a lot of people that there really are deep-seated problems and maybe striving to be more like other countries that do things differently isn't such a bad idea.

Of course, that's just my experience living in a big city where my social circle is overwhelmingly liberal (which easily also applies to SF). I'm sure things are quite different in more rural/conservative areas of the country.

I've been living in the San Francisco area for 10 years. Since Trump has been nominated I'm not allowed to have opinions or feelings. As a straight white cis man my speech is considered violence regardless of content. I'm currently looking for a place to live where I have a choice to speak and still be friends with all sorts of people. Any suggestions?

Best at introspection.

Been here 11 years myself and haven't experienced anything the author has stated either. My first year here was awkward (university exchange), but one can just write that off to culture shock. You can't help but think everyone is staring at you at first, and a lot of times they are - welcome to a very homogeneous Asian population foreigner, you are rare!

I feel like the people that come here and end up hating it are exactly as you say, people with an absurd amount of weird cultural entitlement. It's like they don't understand that they are living in a completely different country from their own with completely different standards and norms. I have luckily not met such bitter folk, although I've tended to just stick to living a standard life here and not going out of my way to join any foreigner circles, which are apparently where these oddball haters tend to cluster.

I remember when Google+ first came out and I flipped to the "people near you panel" on accident. Some lady, probably American, had posted a rant about how the hotel she was in asked her to leave the fitness area because she was covered in tattoos. She went on about self image, and how it's degrading to her being a unique individual, and on and on. I was like, holy shit, does this person even realize the stigma behind tattoos here? Does she understand that she is in a culture that is incredibly not individualistic and all about the group? I mean, how can one go and spend time in a foreign country with that level of ignorance?

Sure, we all make mistakes, but I'd like to think most of us humbly accept that we did a cultural snafu and then move on.

I have to say I got a similar vibe from his writings, it's hard to pinpoint, but a weird sense of cultural entitlement: 'Why are they not as progressive as me and why don't they appreciate me criticising their culture?'

>how many asians in America get asked,"so, where are you from?" whenever they meet someone?

Caucasians in America get asked this all the time too.

The difference is that when Caucasians answer "California", the follow-up question is rarely "which European country are your ancestors from?"

Unfortunately, that's subjective. Try being a redhead. I've gotten it my entire life, even as a 36 year old. "No, but you're Irish, right?" It's the most minor transgression a person can make against me and it's so petty that I've never actually talked about it out loud before but it most certainly happens and more frequently than you'd imagine.

White with Eastern European accent. I get asked all the time, it's an innocent ice breaker.

Maybe, but if you answer 'America', the next question isn't 'but where are you /really/ from?' as though the birthplace of your parents or their parents is a defining factor. And I say this a white British guy, but I've regularly witnessed the slightly different way that it is intonated at those that aren't white.

https://youtu.be/K6TLYwelOPk?t=52s

Those looking for racism or prejudice can find it here.

The usually intended question is about ethnicity. The problem is that phrasing (and the occasional racist) make it awkward.

I'm happy if a 0th generation immigrant considers themselves to be from my country. It implies a sense of pride and desire to be part of their new home and culture. Unfortunately, that pride can be injured when people inadvertently imply they do not belong - 'where are you really from?'

The opposite is becoming more common - born here, rejects local values/language, considers themselves from their ancestral country.

How long have you been there? The bellcurve of frustration he mentions is real.

Of course, the problem with "if you don't like it, leave" is that the people in the most dire straits are the least able to get a visa / work permit. Someone who lost their job, has no health insurance, and has a chronic health condition will find it pretty hard to leave if they wish to live in a reasonably developed nation (even in other places, it's not like visas are given out like candy.)

Hmm, the "where are you from" isn't something I buy here. It's pretty obvious if an Asian person is "from" the U.S. and if their English has an accent I see no issues asking if/where they are from. It's a simple conversation starter. If somebody asks me where I'm from, I just tell them the city. It's not a big deal.

I've never understood what's wrong with voting with your feet.

Reminds me of how the people most dissatisfied with their jobs stay the longest

Sometimes you can't.

More than anything else I wish I could just get on a plane and move to America but I can't because I'm not eligible for any visas. My company tried to relocate me and the immigration lawyer we hired basically said "can't happen, sorry". I did lots of research and I'm nowhere close to ticking enough boxes to do it. I'm currently trying to apply to University, with no idea how I'll afford it, to do a degree so I'll be more eligible for a visa and will tick more boxes in a few years.

It's why "just leave" or "just vote with your wallet" is terrible advice.

So you can't go to America. There are probably other decent countries that will accept you. You can start a business in Hungry for 5000 eur and get permanent residency. The question is, is your current place of residence better than any other place that will accept you? If so, where you are probably isn't that bad. If not, you can vote with your feet.

Yes, it may be annoying that America won't accept you, but that doesn't mean you don't have any options.

I appreciate your answer.

Thinking about it, I realize this may not the best example to give to why "just leave" doesn't work. You might have an attachment to the culture and few, if any, other countries can tick the same boxes.

For me, there's both push and pull factors so while I could go to another country (e.g. I have family in Australia), and it may help a bit, it wouldn't be what I'm looking for. There's aspects of US culture I struggle to find elsewhere.

> It's just a matter of being on the other end of it now.

Not quite. It's a different degree. When I was in Japan, for example, no Japanese person would start a conversation with me in Japanese. It was always English. That mostly doesn't happen to Asian residents in the US.

Most Japanese I know speak Japanese with me. Of course sometime strangers, usually as a kind gesture, speak to me in English. If it seems the conversation can be smoothly done in English, we continue in English. If not, I switch into Japanese and we continue in Japanese. How is any of that offensive or anything but kind?

Comparing the situation to America seems silly. Most people don't speak to Asians on the street in Japanese because most Americans don't speak Japanese. My Japanese wife, on the other hand, was addressed in Chinese when in china town in New York. Yes, confusion sometimes happens in all countries.

English is an International language and the majority of Japanese known at least a little bit. People of all countries can be expected know some English. If they speak to you in English, they are probably working off the statistically sound assumption that you might not speak Japanese, and are merely trying to communicate.

> How is any of that offensive or anything but kind?

When did I say it was offensive?

Good point. Apologies if I projected the main post's angst onto your comment.

Perhaps I am little defensive as I often encounter the point of view that if a foreigner is treated any differently than a racially Japanese person, that this is somehow a fault of Japanese or their culture, when really the worst you can say about them on this topic is that they are observant. People get all worked up that Japanese people know they are white.

It's like I'm older and get asked if I have kids all the time. My younger colleagues never get asked that. They get asked where they went to school and such. It's not discrimination, it's people trying to make conversation and making some reasonable assumptions along the way.

Anyway rant over.

That's because America has many Asian residents that were actually born there and speak the language natively, whereas the gaijin in Japan are almost all not fluent in Japanese. How is it surprising that people would try the most likely language first?

I never said it was surprising.

What is surprising is how every respondent thus far has misinterpreted what I said.

After having followed this thread so far, I still don't get what message you actually intended to convey.

It's obvious that talking English in the US is not on a par with talking Japanese in Japan and also not on a par with talking English in Japan. Talking to someone in English in the US is compatible with considering that person a foreigner and compatible with not considering that person a foreigner, whereas talking English by default in Japan (or any other non-English speaking country) means that you take that person as a foreigner and talking Japanese with someone in Japan means that you accept that person as a non-foreigner.

So what was your point?

> whereas talking English by default in Japan (or any other non-English speaking country) means that you take that person as a foreigner

Exactly that. If you're white in Japan, people will speak to you in English, which indicates they see you as a foreigner...forever. "forever foreigner".

>Exactly that. If you're white in Japan, people will speak to you in English, which indicates they see you as a foreigner...forever. "forever foreigner".

No, it just means that their statistical experience tells them that a random caucasian they meet most likely doesn't speak Japanese and is in their county short term. Which is true statistically speaking.

What you say would be the case if they considered you a foreigner still after they've known you and learned that you in fact speak Japanese and stay there for decades or so.

Every new person I meet would assume I'm a foreigner. That's what gives rise to the feeling of being "forever a foreigner". You never escape it. It's very simple.

>Every new person I meet would assume I'm a foreigner.

Which would be a statistically sound assumption.

In Japan, the cases of caucasians that were born and raised there are very rare (compared to just tourists or short term staying), so they naturally assume you are not that.

It's just that the US has all kinds of people living there since centuries even (e.g. 3-4th generations of Chinese), so you can't make the assumption that a Chinese in the US is a foreigner. Plus, the US doesn't have any ethnical cohesion anyway, so even a newly arrived asian, french, russian, or latin american etc, fits right in with the general population.

Given that, the real "forever a foreigner" problem to me would have to do with the acceptance (or lack thereof) of those that know you (e.g. how colleagues, neighbors, etc see you), not how random strangers see you. That's not what would make me feel like a foreigner...

> Which would be a statistically sound assumption.

This is a straw man. I haven't argued otherwise. You're making the same mistake that other of my respondents are making, which is to assume I'm claiming that the native Japanese are in some way doing something wrong by assuming I don't speak Japanese.

> That's not what would make me feel like a foreigner...

I'm sure you don't realize you're doing this, but I'm telling you how I and many other immigrants who have lived as ethnic minorities in a foreign country are led to feel like outsiders, and your response is to say that those feelings are invalid, and you wouldn't let it bother you, despite having (presumably) never experienced what we're talking about. You're taking a very inconsiderate side of this argument, not to mention incorrect.

>I'm sure you don't realize you're doing this, but I'm telling you how I and many other immigrants who have lived as ethnic minorities in a foreign country are led to feel like outsiders, and your response is to say that those feelings are invalid, and you wouldn't let it bother you, despite having (presumably) never experienced what we're talking about.

Well, I'm European but I have worked in an asian country for years as a very tiny ethnic minority there (not even 0.01%).

But in general, "you haven't experienced it" is no real argument, because just having experienced something doesn't mean the experience or the interpretation of the experience is justified. And that's something that someone who hasn't experienced the thing might still be able to point out.

I don't doubt that one can feel "like a foreigner" in Japan.

People can feel all sorts of things, including that, and Japanese society might especially encourage them to feel like foreigners.

What I'm saying is that if a caucasian feels like a foreigner just because Japanese because people assume he probably doesn't speak Japanese, then he feels like a foreigner for a superficial reason -- and not about how he's treated and how he's integrated (or not) into his Japanese social circles, but about how Japanese people he doesn't know think he's a tourist or short term visitor.

> What I'm saying is that if a caucasian feels like a foreigner just because Japanese because people assume he probably doesn't speak Japanese, then he feels like a foreigner for a superficial reason

A shorter way to say this is "If a person feels like X because people assume he's X every day, then he feels like a X for a superficial reason", which is almost directly self-contradictory. If people treat you like X every day, that's likely going to make you feel like X.

Perhaps you somehow wouldn't feel X despite daily messages that you are X, but most people would.

>A shorter way to say this is "If a person feels like X because people assume he's X every day, then he feels like a X for a superficial reason", which is almost directly self-contradictory. If people treat you like X every day, that's likely going to make you feel like X.

I think where we disagree is that I think that this is not an absolute, but depends on a) what people, and b) under what circumstances and for what reasons they assume you're X.

If it's only strangers that assume that, and because it's more or less statistically sound to assume it (that has nothing to do with you specifically) then

E.g. if people assume I'm a jerk for wearing some t-shirt message, but only because they don't know me and don't know I wear it ironically, then it wouldn't make me feel like perhaps I'm a jerk -- just that they don't know me and/or they don't get the joke. If on the other hand people I know imply that I'm a jerk, that would actually hurt me.

But maybe all this is over-analysing (well, not maybe, it is).

In a sense, someone living in Japan who is not Japanese, it is indeed a foreigner. Unlike the US or UK, etc, Japan is an ethnically cohesive society -- most of them are not just born there AND raised there, but also of Japanese ethnicity for millennia. So it makes sense not to consider a caucasian who lives there even 20 or 30 years as Japanese. But the key is probably whether they feel welcome.

What? That's because english is considered universal language and they don't want to presume that you know japanese well enough for a conversation?

That doesn't happen to asians in the US, you know maybe because they don't know the asian language?

> That's because english is considered universal language and they don't want to presume that you know japanese well enough for a conversation?

Yes, which is a source of white people being "forever foreigners" in Japan, which is exactly my point.

I don't understand, how does that make it "forever foreigners"? Have you tried telling them you understand japanese and continue conversation? How would the other person know if you arrived yesterday or living there for 20yrs? This is a pretty bad example imo.

"forever" because it's based on the color of my skin, which I can't change, and "foreigner" because they're assuming I don't speak the language of the land. It's quite simple.

You seem to be assuming I think they're making a mistake by doing this, or for some reason shouldn't be doing it, which I never said.

I understand it as opposed to situation when you move from Germany to Italia. If you manage to learn the accent and language, you can pass as Italian and be treated exactly as one in every detail. In Japan, if you are white, it is not possible and you will never achieve that level of assimilation nor will your children.

Statistically, they are right in assuming that you are probably not a speaker of Japanese. Of all white (or black) folk in Japan, perhaps 5% speaks enough Japanese to carry an every day conversation. The rest are tourists, business folk, and weeaboos.

It never bothered me. Whenever I initiated a conversation people just spoke Japanese. Sometimes people would start in English, but the conversation always effortlessly slid into Japanese when I answered in Japanese. Further down from Tokyo the experience tends to be even simpler at times: either you speak Japanese, or you have no conversations at all.

Well I live in Spain (Barcelona) and look Asian. It often happens to me that people start a conversation with me in English.

I am from Barcelona and it happens something similar with my Japanese wife, but with Spanish. She is not fluent in Catalan nor Spanish, but she can speak some Catalan. And every time, because she looks asian, everybody changes the conversation to Spanish even if she started talking in Catalan.

Everybody assumes that she is Chinese as well...

Well I'm French (grew up and born in France, but my father is Vietnamese), and some people have trouble to accept that I am not from an Asian country. The conversation goes like this: "Where are you from?" "France" "Uh?? no, come on, seriously" "Yes, I'm from France" "OK, but... where are you born?" ""Uh... France...".

By the way, my wife is also Japanese... it's possible that our wives know each other :)

Keep in mind that the US was entirely built from immigration, though, and most of us realize that the part after the hyphen is just as important as the part before it and often represents several generations of heritage. In other cultures, immigration might be more abnormal, resulting in folks uncertainly opening a hailing frequency with the strange probably-tourist Englishman they’ve encountered, whereas in America it’s quite trivial to glance past physical features and lead off in English.

(Helps that it’s English, specifically, too.)

In another light, I usually have a sense for whether my English will find purchase before speaking because American culture has subtle cues and tics even in the way one carries themselves. I don’t have the perspective of reversing the situation, but I’d totally buy a scenario where the same sense is difficult to ascertain inside other cultures. Then you have to think about which possibility is more polite/offensive between assuming their language or trying yours, especially in various cultures; we certainly look at this differently, given the first point.

I guess I'll add an anecdata point to your anecdata point, I had multiple random Japanese persons initiate conversation with me in Japanese when I visited Japan for a couple of weeks.

I'm a white, blond man and went together with my white blond girlfriend.

It highly depends on the city. In Kyoto, people only speak to me in English. I've even seen asians get talked to in English there when their fashion/behavior stands out as slightly non-Japanese. Everywhere else, I get straight, everyday Japanese thrown at me.

Honestly, it could very well depend on the city how you get received. I live in a fairly rural area and it's adapt or go home here. If you live in this area, people seem to just assume you are decently adapted and don't need to be handled like an outsider.

This has been my experience here in Osaka. Even though there were dozens of other Japanese around, an old man walked up and asked me in Japanese if I knew where the closest ATM for his particular bank was.

I'm not entirely sure what it is, but I think you eventually hit a threshold where you are somehow signaling via body language or manner that, as you say, you don't need to be handled like an outsider.

Edit: I just noticed I have replied to you twice. We seem to be on the same page :)

> no Japanese person would start a conversation with me in Japanese. It was always English

Note that this is functionally equivalent to saying "the only people who started conversations with me were people who wanted to practice their English", and that's probably closer to what was going on.

Personally, my first few years in Japan people started English conversations with me all the time, but at some point it slowed and then stopped - I can't even remember when last it happened. Whether that's due to something about me changing, or a byproduct of the places I hang out, etc., I have no idea.