Alienation 101: On Chinese Students in the American Midwest | Hacker News Reader

Alienation 101: On Chinese Students in the American Midwest

1843magazine.com

83 pointssohkamyung76 comments

This problem is even worse in the UC system. All STEM related classes are easily >50% Chinese international students. They are extremely insular and hang out/study exclusively with other Chinese. It wouldn't be so bad if it didn't mean effectively cutting in half the fellow students you can turn to for support in a class. They should really force the point of integration, rather than using these kids as paychecks to the detriment of local students.

I used to think this way, until one day many years later I realized that, (a) using a second language is very cognitively demanding and (b) if you've had to work hard to keep up with the English based instruction all day, it's even more demanding to get yourself to go use that language that's exhausting to use, after hours for socializing or group work. Not to mention that most second language learners of any kind (ex American learning German) will feel dumb/childlike in their inadequacies in their second language.

So imo we'd do well to have empathy towards their situation.

Disagree. When I have been abroad the first time and then my English was subpar I still hung out with native English folks only to improve. I have never been with my local folks.

I assume there must be another reason than being exhausted.

From living abroad in a few different countries, this just isn't the case for most people unless a specific effort has to be sought out to find similar people. A large number of people will simply default to hanging out with people who speak the same language as them when they want to relax. Most people, but obviously not everyone, until they reach a certain level feel slightly uneasy in a situation where they are the only non-native. I've been in the situation many times and had a good time, but the anxiety is there. What I found the most interesting was that non-native but well spoken English speakers were also more comfortable with English speakers while they were learning a new language.

When you aren't forced into the situation, say living in the countryside of a foreign country, or you aren't extremely studious its fairly natural to spend your down time with native speakers.

I'm a German native speaker at a University in Germany. In our CubeSat project, we all use English most of the time. A good third of the students are foreign, from India, Eastern Europe, Turkey and the rest of the world.

We chose to speak a language _native to none of us_ to be _inclusive to all_. Everybody speaks English to such an extent that it becomes the lingua france of students in Germany. I think students coming to the US should be able to use English, too. Especially given the TOFL/whatever language test you have to pass to be admitted.

Btw, a common story the exchange students tell is how stupid the other exchange students who only stay among themselves are.

Wow, that's cool. Can you please tell the name of the Uni ?

TU Munich

Am anglo USian who has worked in university context and currently also attending place with high amount of foreign students...

From observation / interactions it is all about motivation -

You had a motivation to improve your English -

Some, (Big note: not all!!!) of these students really don't give a crap about living in really 'experiencing' their host country, they are there because it gives them a convenient checkbox to tick on their 'international' credentials, enough of $host_country_language to manage with basic business transactions, and a way to network with other rich people from their own country, so when they go back home after completing their degree, they have a network in-country for their careers, etc.. The foreign degree it's a status symbol, and that only. No one is going to know how many locals you knew, how many host-country cultural events you experienced, etc, only that you attended and graduated.

Some of these cultures are also internally elitist/narcissistic (e.g. our country is the best and other people are inferior), which while the same could be said of people not welcoming guest students, also can drive self-isolation; I am here only to look down my nose at you as some sort of specimen of curiosity while I obtain the credential which I will use at home in a nepotistic, insular way that you in your 'mere mortal', job-applying and needing-to-work-to-survive-way, will not. Being from the richest of the rich in countries with huge income inequality also facillitates this attitude.. Tell me that the kid in the article, some early 20's person, having the most expensive car in the entire city where his university is, doesn't create a hugely warped sense of self-importance.. why not 'capitalize' on that by being the coolest kid in your native circle than being the bizarre forigner that noone can relate to financially?

Socioeconomically, it is like the richest people from Harvard/Yale/Cambridge/Oxford, etc. deciding to move to a small town.. many wouldn't mingle with the locals other than as a curio, and this factor is made more complex by the cultural barriers, esp. in cultures which are more introverted - clashing with US culture and also being biased towards self-isolation

While you make a good point, the thing is that in my personal observation only the Chinese students (they were probably the largest group, which probably plays a role TBH) kept to themselves.

The other foreign students would merrily mingle with the locals and other foreign students. Just the Chinese would stay in their bubble.

Don't get me wrong, I know 4 languages, which means I keep forgetting words in ones I am not using, and it gets a bit awkward to speak in it after a while.

But you know what? I speak in it anyway. How else will I improve my language skills?

The other thing is, they're going to university in USA. Most of their studies will (likely) be in English, so by not picking up English, they are hurting not only their studies, but future career prospects.

Unless, of course, they also have Chinese employees, that only employ Chinese people, which does happen where I live (Australia).

Language can be learned. If you want to study somewhere but refuse to learn the local language you're delusional IMO.

Studying in a foreign country is a luxury, not a right.

This was my observation too. Actually you see this ethnic-based clustering with others too, but it's just that the Chinese stick out more cos yes, there's usually more of them in STEM subjects. They're also not afraid to openly converse in their own language, even in class projects!

Sometimes I think that locals can do more to interact with them. Their presence is also our opportunity to learn from them. There's a lot of prejudice (Chinese people cheat for example) which surprise surprise, if you mingle more, you'll realise it's as stupid as saying white people like to party all the time.

Ultimately we group together to feel safer. If you approach one with a friendly face, you're likely to be received with appreciation and intrigue. If not...well what exactly have you got to lose? Don't let bad experience shape your prejudice though.

Using a second language is very cognitively demanding, and it takes a while to get over feeling stupid; that's all the more reason to climb that hill quickly, and integration (especially language) programs at a university can help. I studied abroad at an elite school in France with very little French language experience, and I would have loved to have had more social opportunities (the students were very heads-down and the class structure didn't encourage socialization as well as U.S. universities) for exactly the reasons you cited, not to mention better support for learning the language (the school had a conversation partner program, but not much else).

I mean, a passing TOFEL score is required, I think. Expecting them all to speak English conversationally is mute with a passing score.

Does that mean english is now one of my first languages?

It is logical. When I was in China, my university has international students as well, they also exclusively hang out with only each other. Actually, it is Westerners hang out with Westerners(US/Germany/France, etc you name it), Koreans hang out with Koreans, Japanese hang out with Japanese, and Africans hang out with each other.

Is this really that abnormal? That when exposed to a foreign environment and probably not very good at the language, people just turn to other people that is facing/faced the similar situation before for ... help and support?

When I was a student, I wanted to hang out with the locals' as well, but the cultural difference is pretty obvious: I don't really like partying, couldn't drink too much, grown up with very different music, and often time I didn't get other people's jokes that I felt like an idiot. And since my family paid premium to send me here, I spent most of the time in library studying, by myself or with other Chinese students, just like I did back in college, leaving little time for culture immersion.

So maybe the problem should be, the school should call more people to participate in STEM classes? Or force a diverse study group, that worked well for some of my classes, and I have a good time collaborating with my teammates.

White people in university also tend to hang out / study exclusively with other white people. Why is it only the Chinese students who get a bad rap for it?

> It wouldn't be so bad if it didn't mean effectively cutting in half the fellow students you can turn to for support in a class.

They don't owe you anything.

If they're the majority, is it fair to say "they" are insular? It likely goes both ways with the locals not thinking the Chinese students are cool or fun enough, or not bothering to make friends with them because it's just easier to keep doing what they've been doing all their lives.

If those students weren't there it doesn't mean they'd automatically be replaced by local students, there might just be fewer students in class overall. Look on the bright side: it's an opportunity to learn and practice what's possibly the most useful language apart from English, and the language of the future as China's industrialisation continues (due to its far larger population, even with e.g. only half the per-capita GDP of America it will still be a much larger economy). Baidu is already leading Google in computer vision. Quite a few of my friends in university were Chinese, and on average they seemed more interested in study and less interested in just boozing their way through university than the average western classmate.

Logicchains, you are aware of how many students are turned down by UC schools yes? It might just be that those folks they turned down would fill those seats.

As an Australian I'm not aware of this, I was speaking in terms of American universities as a whole. Fewer Chinese enrollments would mean fewer enrollments overall, and less money flowing into the university system (which assuming it isn't all squandered on admin, would reduce research output).

It wouldn't mean that, the good US universities are supply-constrained.

They're probably turned down because they aren't good enough for scholarships and they don't have the money to manage without any aid.

It might also just mean decreasing the quality of the student body. Which means instructors either decrease the quality of education provided, or else fail a bunch of people out (not exactly doing those people a favor...)

I don't it's prime facie factual that that admitting fewer foreign students is necessarily a good thing for domestic students.

Let's lower the standards for out top universities. I'm sure that will not backfire ..

There are only so many seats available for local students made available by government funding.

When you refer to "Baidu leading Google on computer vision" are you referring to this?

https://www.technologyreview.com/s/538111/why-and-how-baidu-...

I integrated with some Chinese students and it was really hard! The language barrier means that conversation is really slow and you don't get to see their personality as much. Additionally, when I brought them to events with all English students, they had to spend all their time with me because they struggled to make friends. I think that you should have more empathy for them.

Maybe I'm an outlier, but there were quite a few chinese international students in my computer science courses (not at UC) that were quite willing, even with their broken English, to try and interact and hang out with english speaking, non chinese individuals like myself.

I wonder if strong international demand for American University degrees is why tuition costs keep rising.

Maybe its the other way around: State governments cut universities' budgets, so universities look for other revenue opportunities.

Big 10 school I went to used out-of-state and foreign students (who paid 2-3x what in-state was) to finance finaid to less advantaged in-state students.

I am not sure about the accurate data, but I feel most universities here in the United States are non-profit organizations (i.e. created not with the goal of distributing excess revenue to members or leaders).

If it is the demand drives up the tuition cost for those non-profit universities, then why not build some for-profit universities here to cater the additional demand?(such as Trump University, or University of Phoenix)

Just because they are non-profit doesn't mean they don't love your money. Just look at the endowment of any major school.

just some side question...if a non-profit organization "loves your money" (which I would interpret as motivated by your money [at least partially]), would that make it not so much a non-profit organization? If that is the case, would this kind of "love your money" behavior exhibited by a non-profit organization make that organization less trustworthy to you?

Or perhaps we could further refine that "love for money" as "beyond necessity" and "within necessity"...but the problem is very difficult for an external observer to tell where the boundary lies for a particular entity -- although that boundary does exist in many cases...

The obvious answer is that "non-profit" doesn't have a meaningful definition outside of the tax code. "Profit" is an accounting trick, for one, so any "excess money" (the commonly-understood meaning of "profit") can easily be funneled into grants, administrator salaries, larger workforces to satisfy administrators' urge to play primate dominance games, etc.

Another one is that "non-profits" (in the tax-code sense) are actually allowed to make a profit (both in the accountants' sense of the word, and the ordinary sense). Hospital systems, for example, often make huge profits, while hiding behind a non-profit status that they've inherited from the bunch of actually-charitable nuns who started running the hospital 150 years ago.

Profit vs. for profit doesn't matter. You need to recruit the right faculty, people at the top of their field who can go anywhere - THAT is the hard problem.

> All STEM related classes are easily >50% Chinese international students.

I'm going to need citation a citation for >50% Chinese

The data is my anecdotal experience as an undergrad currently taking lower division engineering requirements. This applies equally to the California community college system.

How do you know they're international students and not Californians? All of them? How do you know they're Chinese, did you ask, or are you going by your best guess?

I was in the graduate stats program at Mizzou. It's definitely majority Chinese. I'd conservatively say 60%.

My anecdotal experience (UCSD) is that at least 50% of the ones who attend lectures are East Asian.

But plenty of us are US-born! A glance often isn't enough to distinguish between international and domestic students.

Exactly my point. You really have no idea unless you ask someone.

the previous user, here on HN. you're welcome. prove him wrong, using data if you disagree.

50% Asian possible, 50% Chinese? I doubt. The OP didn't use data either, it is just what-I-saw

Exactly, this is like when I thought a start up I was at half women until I counted and realized it was more like 35%. I can't believe I'm being downvoted on HN for suggesting that this particulate anecdote isn't exactly reliable.

As an Asian guy who grew up and attended college in NJ, I've heard anecdotes of Chinese international students wearing designer clothes and driving Maseratis but this article makes it seem more prevalent than I've realized.

I recently thought to myself how lucky I was that, being a 6'3" guy who speaks Mandarin, what a great position I'm in to make lots of money in the coming decades. I always thought the Chinese loved American culture, so me being American would make it easier to sell to China. Look everyone, I'm so westernized! What a disappointment to read that the Chinese government wants none of that cultural influence. I mean, I understand their point of view, but damn, there goes my 'easy' money.

I've always grown up self conscious about my Asian-ness, as if I am a second class citizen. I've always avoided hanging out with other Asian-looking people.

Great, now I have to worry about this new stereotype too.

Well, if you want to sell to Chinese, you'll have to first learn about Chinese, no? Although sounds like you already have a headstart by knowing Mandarin.

Alternatively, you can help represent Chinese firms to Americans, considering you are one of the few Americans who speak Mandarin, and understand the nuances of how Asians are perceived in US, which Chinese firms don't have a clear understanding of.

> Although sounds like you already have a headstart by knowing Mandarin

I'm currently learning Mandarin, mostly for fun, but I do have this fantasy that it will make me more employable in future (currently an anglo-australian monoglot).

Of course it's total fantasy, because if you want someone technical who speaks both languages, you just hire a Chinese expat, who not only speaks both English and $chinese, but also understands China far, far better than I ever could. And if you're wanting someone who can speak the language, a deep understanding of the culture is obviously also desirable.

OTOH, for the same reason, you could be hired by Chinese firms looking to sell in Australia.

Even based on such a short comment, you seem to have some serious problems with internalized racism. You clearly seem to think that being westernized is somehow better, and it's a "disappointment" that others have pride in themselves and their culture.

So the only reason that you feel "lucky" to speak Mandarin is so you can make "easy" money? Your purposefully don't associate with Asian people?

Don't "worry" about some stereotype or your "Asian-ness", but develop some god-damn pride in who you are.

I'm of Chinese ethnicity but been in the West since birth and I've seen this kind of behaviour before even among friends, but I dislike the author's constant mention of the Chinese Communist Party as why Chinese kids isolate themselves, it's not a causal relationship. Just because Trump is president of America doesn't mean all Americans are against immigration. In the end, these are just kids who feel a bit left out and different.

> I'm of Chinese ethnicity but been in the West since birth

It's not about ethnicity, it's about culture.

People who have grown up in China (in my experience) have a completely different mindset. Speaking about something as simple as freedom of speech, or the concept of citizenship through naturalization, or the idea that a poor nation (America) prospers with liberty rather than having to grow before they can have it (the actual excuse the party gives for what we consider tyranny), could be difficult with some people fresh out of China.

I have had long conversations with people who have grown up in China about things like The Party silencing (often imprisoning) dissenters, and controlling Chinese nationals even when they are abroad; typically they will justify the actions of The Party by saying that the Chinese people need to be controlled right now because they're not rich/developed enough yet, and that liberty will come later. When I say that the United States started with squalor and deliberate liberty, then developed into a nation which is stronger than China with a fraction of the population, it falls on deaf ears.

> It's not about ethnicity, it's about culture.

Ethnicity is culture. (That is, ethnicity is the state of belonging to a group with a shared cultural identity.)

I understand what you mean but why patronise a group of kids who are trying to get a future and look for a way out, this was about kids trying to get an education in USA who are isolated and was not a political debate about developmental states. This piece almost comes off as critical of children coming to the States to study and culture is not a black and white issue either.

These ideas seem too be unique to North America and Western Europe.

What surprised me about the article was that it didn't try to connect the Communist influence to the ostentatious display of wealth. Surely there's some cognitive dissonance? How does the Party feel about the message these kids are sending with their luxury vehicles?

The "Communist" party's name is just a relic from the early days when they had Soviet support. China has a state-capitalist economy now, high ranking party officials are among the wealthiest Chinese.

Those rich kids driving luxury cars in the US would be driving the same brands in China; the ruling class doesn't have much of a sense of modesty that would speak against flaunting their wealth in this way.

The message they're sending to Americans? Seems like exactly the message they'd want to send. They control China, so nobody there needs to see the same messaging there that they do in America; and that's even with them making roughly the same displays in China.

You need to realize that none of them leave without state permission and all need to report regularly while they are away. They are told to not mingle and at least one of their number will send reports back to their home school who is following the rules and who is breaking away. Can't give citations because there are real consequences for them if names start getting out.

The rich Chinese kids probably want to make some American friends, but they also expected a high social status where people cater to their needs and conveniences.

But the American kids only know how to deal with foreigners admiring the American way and looking to assimilate into American culture, plus, catering to foreigners is not really in the dictionary of the mightiest country.

Talk about expectation mismatch.

Seeing the parallels with Australia [1] [2], I'd suggest that the Chinese Student and Scholar's Associations are exacerbating the situation for Chinese students. The CSSA's influence puts the locals on the defensive and make the Chinese students the "meat in the sandwich" in the battle for influence.

[1] http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-04/the-chinese-communist-...

[2] http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2017/06/05/4678871.ht...

The isolation aspect is.. problematic, yes. But I'm much more worried about the cheating aspect. Its a fairly routine occurance that if we're interviewing an East Asian, they'll contact current Asians working in our department and ask for the answers to the interview questions, with absolutely no shame.

It's not alienation; it's isolation. Trust me. I even asked a few.

What's the difference?

I'm guessing that alienation = imposed upon you, isolation = voluntarily self-imposed.

Not a native speaker, so can anyone please conform these connotations? I would expect "isolation" to be neutral on the "imposed <-> self-imposed" spectrum. I would call self-imposed isolation "solitude".

Native speaker - I have the same gut instinct on the connotations. But, the term 'isolationism' refers to an intentionally policy of isolating oneself (a nation, presumably). Solitude is close too - but I think would mean complete separation from everyone, even like-minded people. Like Superman has his fortress of Solitude, and it's not filled with other Supermen. As far as I know.

That's actually a great premise for a Superman spinoff.

I see students who come from another country. That they form a community is not strange. It is a big risk to stretch oneself. Hopefully they don't miss out on the opportunity to study and learn and incorporate into their lives view something unique and rare beyond just academic skills. That's a special opportunity.

Self reliance is a good skill to learn. A University gives you a framework, an education as well as space to figure that out. Those who cheat only cheat themselves in the long run. Those who find competition unfair only cheat themselves as well. Education is not zero sum. In addition you should strive to become an informed citizen and increasingly today a citizen of the world.

Not everyone will do this and that's ok. Some will, some won't and some of them will change the world.

Seems like a good opportunity to invest in luxury car dealerships in Iowa

>SORRY, YOU NEED TO ENABLE JAVASCRIPT TO VISIT THIS WEBSITE.

Sorry, no I don't.

yep, I opened up the inspector, deleted the div covering the content and read it just fine...

Wow, that's just extra obnoxious then. I wonder why they go to the trouble of breaking their website just for people who disable JS. Ads maybe?

I hate everytime this comes up on hackernews.

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