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Comment by JCharante | Hacker News Reader

I know it doesn't add anything of value to the thread, but that's a really good analogy.

It's a terrible analogy. A better analogy is you're a prostitute and you tell your client that you looked around and the going rate for this type of work is more than he's been paying you, so you're gonna go fuck other guys for money.

You don't fire your girlfriend in tough times, but your boss will fire you if he had to. It's a stricylty pay to play relationship.

We use the prostitute analogy a lot with my techie friends. Just don't tell my parents that I write software. I pretend to work at Starbucks.

This is why customers can never give you specific requirements for a project. Deep down they know you write software, but they can't say, "write this specific software for this much money". They have to use vague, hand-wavy terms so that they can always step back and claim it was just collaboration between consenting adults. They were just paying you for your time.

Not really. Business is business and personal is personal. If you look at them both the same you'll end up stuck in a job you hate for 8 years thinking you're being super loyal and that raise is just around the corner.

Spouses are loyal back, businesses are not.

This. Its so important for workers to realize just what predicament they're in. So while it was possible for lifelong jobs to be possible in the past, its not so much the case today. No job is really secure, and one does have to stay on ones toes.

Not saying that you should be concerned about getting fired everyday. But if you don't create demonstrable value to your company over a longer period of time (a couple of years perhaps) don't expect to keep the job. Things are moving wayy too fast today.

Generating value is only a small part of it. You can get fired or laid off for any reason in most places in the US. You can be doing great work personally, but if upper management screws up, or the business environment is just bad (despite management's best efforts), you'll get laid off as soon as it makes financial sense for the company to do so. You can also get canned or at least mistreated to the point of misery because of interpersonal problems having nothing to do with your performance, a terrible manager, etc.

That's not true at all in my experience. Both as a manager to others, I've always tried to be loyal to employees who invested in the employer/employee relationship - and as an employee who benefitted from having an employer/managers look out for me when inevitable bumps in the road occurred in my personal life.

Outside of my own direct experience, I can also recall many other co-workers' experiences where the companies I've worked for went above and beyond in their commitment to their employees. One time that meant making many extraordinary allowances for an employee suffering from a mental breakdown. At times it has meant extending the employment of someone who was looking for a life/career change, but the company kept on paying a salary until the employee found somewhere new to land - way beyond where the employment had any real benefit to the company. There are many others.

By all means, takes some precautions. By all means, stand up for yourself. By all means, make sure that you're being fairly compensated... but if you go into every relationship, personal or business, with your shields raised and phasers set to kill - you will reap what you sow.

Loyalty on a large scale requires threat-backed enforcement. Mafia members were loyal to each other not just because family was sacred but because they'd be killed otherwise. Big megacorps of the 20th century basically worked by vesting your payout over your lifetime; leave halfway, and you'd miss out. No such threat exists in America today, so while it's possible for individual managers and employees to choose to behave in the loyal manner you described, when giving general advice, it's wise to treat business as business.

I see a lot of employer hostility on HN. While it's good to watch your back, the constant call to go in with guns blazing doesn't seem helpful to me.

I know that personal relationships aren't exactly the same as business relationships, but to pretend that they aren't somewhat analogous doesn't line up with my own experiences. I've had a lot of personal relationships in business. Almost every boss I've ever had has been my friend on some level and the same goes with a lot of people who've worked for me.

When you treat people with respect, consideration, and friendship in your work life - you'll be surprised at how often you get the same from them in return.

>the constant call to go in with guns blazing doesn't seem helpful to me.

Getting independent information of your value isn't "guns blazing."

Getting independent information consists of going on GlassCeiling or Dice to look at industry salary surveys, googling, etc.... maybe even talking with some recruiters about going rates.

Going out and getting a job offer is a step beyond that.

OK, then the boss isn't able to get any specific reports on my performance, they can only ask me directly how well I'm performing or look at standards of performance. Going out and tracking my individual performance takes too much work and shows they don't trust me. Seems fair.

It's not like getting a job offer in tech is free to the employee and can just be used as a casual "fuck you" to the boss. Even with the current tech market the way that interviews are currently done will use up a lot of your PTO to get through. If an employee is at the point where they are effectively spending money to get this information why isn't it viewed as a the employer's fault for making the employee feel it was necessary? I know I don't want to switch jobs frequently but when the company posts record profits but my quality of life is decreasing due to cost of living increases, what would you expect me to do?

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