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Comment by objclxt | Hacker News Reader

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objclxt

Off the top of my head big users of React include:

* Apple (their entire dev docs site is built in it, and they've hosted Bay Area React user meet-ups)

* Twitter (for their mobile web)

* Microsoft (parts of Visual Studio use it)

* Netflix (all over their frontend stack)

...as well as Dropbox, AirBnb, Venmo...

So whilst I don't doubt you've discussed it with concerned counsel, there are huge corporations deploying React today, many of whom have extensive experience dealing with patent and IP issues (Apple, Microsoft, etc).

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To add on to this list, even IBM with their large patent portfolio has a large number of teams deploying projects using React and other FB OSS technology.

Disclaimer: I work for IBM.

Are those internal projects? Or external?

A good mix of both, surprisingly :)

To be concrete, IBM Watson has several products that leverage it that we sell to customers. For example, Watson Company Profiler, Watson Virtual Agent, Watson Discovery-related tools, and more.

Other organizations use it as well inside of IBM, like IBM Cloud and IBM Watson IoT, but I'm less familiar with their products off the top of my head.

Yes and for a while it wasn't allowed at IBM either for the same reasons. The latest changes made it possible again which is why now they can/do use it.

Source: Friends at IBM

This is absolutely correct. Before the end of last year, getting approval to use it was a very challenging process.

However, many teams went through the process in order to use it because of how valuable they believe React is to their products. Groups like IBM Watson IoT were fortunate enough to get portfolio-level clearances as well during that time.

Thankfully the process changed and many product teams add React to their list of libraries/frameworks to evaluate for their use-cases.

Maybe they signed separate agreements with FB. Patents sharing or exceptions. Big corporations do that.

I'd like to ask their legals about why they feel OK using React, but I'm too far away. Is anybody here in touch with them?

I don't think so, I work for a big corporation, and our legal department contacted Facebook to confirm the interpretation and ask if a reworking of the license was possible.

It wasn't possible, consequently my company asked that we move away from React.

However, one thing that could be interesting to see is:

* do the companies using React are using the latest version or the last version without the patent clauses?

* do they start new projects with React?

Big companies know they have the resources to devote to a code rewrite if it ever came to that. Small- to mid-size companies are the ones that have the greatest exposure.

Also, it's my opinion that the companies like AirBNB who use it are not considering that it will complicate acquisition by another party. They are basically taking themselves out of contention for purchase by a company that is in direct competition with FB. Maybe, evidently, they don't care but I just hope everyone using it is thinking about such things.

Small to mid-size software companies mostly don't have patents. Naturally they aren't going to be too worried about problems that will only affect them if they are wildly successful. They are more worried about becoming successful in the first place than they are about optimizing their level of success in the unlikely event that they do become that successful.

So, the OP had a question, which was ""Considering almost every single large tech company is using React, presumably there's not much reason for concern? IANAL. ""

I pointed out a number of these are concerned. There is in fact, reason for concern. That doesn't mean people won't use it, it just means they may be willing to take the risk. In fact, some of the counsel who are in fact, concerned, are on your list of big users!

If i have 100 billion dollars in the bank, i may be willing to take more risk around a random open source project than a small startup.

You don't seem to argue the original point at all (ie whether there is cause for concern), just point out "there are lots of people who use it who have extensive experience dealing with IP". I'm not sure how this means there should be no concern.

For example, i know at least a few of those corporations treat React very specially compared to most other open source (in how they use it, in how they try to segregate it, etc).

So yeah.

>* Microsoft (parts of Visual Studio use it)

you mean vs code, which is a separate product from "visual studio"

Vscode does not use react specifically for the licensing reason. I don’t know if they do now but when I was at MS this was the case. I know many teams at MS who evaluated react and lawyers strictly advised to stay away from it. I hear things have changed a bit, but you’ll never see Office and Windows use it.

Office uses react already: https://github.com/OfficeDev/office-ui-fabric-react

That’s not “Office uses React”, it’s a “collection of robust components designed to make it quick and simple for you to create web experiences using the Office Design Language.”

Do you really see no difference between the two?

The React components are being used on production Office websites/webapps. Source: I'm a Microsoft employee working on this project.

http://www.reactnative.tools/ React Native at Microsoft

Very limited “use”; mostly just enabling external developers to interface using React to their existing tools (that are not using React). If the Armageddon should come, and Microsoft is to enter a legal patent dispute/battle, stopping this React “use” is a no-op for Microsoft.

Microsoft builds Skype on React Native. They use React in production on several websites including outlook.com. They are using it internally and not just for external devs.

Also see this HN thread from a year ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12108273

You'd be actually surprised how many teams inside Microsoft wrote their own smaller versions of OS libraries. It happened a lot less after Nadella era, but Ballmer era had a "we can't use anything not built here"

VS (the big one, not VSCode) has a bunch of stuff in it written in HTML5/JS.

The relatively new client framework for SharePoint Online is also based on React.

Can you add a short elaboration on the visual Studio bit? I use visual studio every day in my day job and am very curious how react fits into that.

VS and EdgeDevTools use InfernoJS I believe. Another VDOM implementation.

Funny enough that the author of Inferno now works for React team at Facebook. Inferno was a great project with perf that blows react out the water. Not sure if it’s maintained anymore.

He intentionally left the project to protect the IP of Inferno from falling into the same patent'y business is what I heard.

This wasn't the case. I left the project to focus my attention on React.

Haha! When the author actually comes to clarify and make a response. Oh! I love HN!

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