Visiting Chinese Megacities
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They are more often than not incredibly loud, rude and lack almost all basic human courtesy we take for granted in the west and even in asian countries like Thailand. They will push past you in queues, yell mandarin loudly in your face to others behind you, stand in the middle of the street blocking traffic, play videos on their phone speaker on full volume without using headphones - I could go on and on and on.
There's absolutely zero consideration for anyone but themselves and are, by a wide margin, the rudest tourists i've ever encountered anywhere.
I can't help but wonder if it's just the type Chinese tourists that visit Thailand and mainland China would be different, but its just not a risk i'm willing to take.
The problems with the lost generation are sophisticated, partially caused by the lack of education, but also the wrecked economy at Mao's era, worse than that of North Korea these days. Even worse, Mao blindly followed Russia to encourage baby booming, and there were consecutive 3-year natural disasters around 1960, consequently all these caused severe national wide food shortage. Lots of people died of starvation, for the rest, they had to do everything to just survive, regardless the means were either moral or evil. That's where the lost generation came from. Would they care Confucius? of cause not, part of Mao's culture r8n actually encouraged them to somehow not to believe in the traditional culture, of many that includes Confucius.
Fast forward to now, people of the lost generation are mostly retired and free, and some also have the money to tour around, definitely not all, but given the overall population that's a huge number of people, especially when compared to other places in the world, no wonder they were called locust in HK.
Luckily, things improved a lot, both the education system and economy wise, that's why you can see the young generation, who you probably communicated with, are mostly kind, or at least much better compared to the lost generation, and they'll bring even better education and economy to the following generations. I'm holding a good faith, and hopefully so are you.
It's a massive country with a lot of different groups of people. They're not all the same.
Don't let this keep you from visiting mainland China. Tourists from most countries seem to be far more asshole-ish than locals in general.
I went to China in 2011 (Shaighai – Xiamen – Hong Kong) and it was a great experience.
As others have said though, I wouldn't let this put you off visiting China. There are some really incredible places in China, and most people are really, really friendly. Most of the time, people are more than willing to help you out, especially if you're white (sad, but true). And as long as you don't go during Chinese holidays (Feb or Oct) then it won't be too bad travelling around the country.
(nb- I may be a poor judge, as I don't particularly enjoy living in cities anywhere, regardless of continent.)
(nb2- I used to live on the outskirts of Vientiane, Laos, and loved it. Except for the monkeys. And the fact that that half my family loves durian. But that is a subject for a different post.)
This manifests itself in some annoying behaviors like jumping queues, or rushing out of your seats as soon as a plane lands, but also gives rise to some great features - people are rarely wary of strangers, and seem to be more likely to share things or help out one another. Either way, this hardly seems like a deal breaker in deciding what places to visit. There are a lot of factors - natural beauty, history, culture, food, economic development, etc. that are arguably a lot more important.
However, this article is about tourists who have no stake in fitting in and will be on a plane back home in a few days.
I don't think there is any deliberate malice in it, but consideration for themselves and their family only and solely, is evident and consistent, this aint a bad apple issue. The tour operators and charter flight providers could do more prearrival education in my opinion, fake modern manners for all I care.
I feel very sorry for flight attendants in asia, always a good chat about the subject if sat opposite jump seat
I think that in both cases, the causes are essentially the same - inexperience. American and Chinese people have very little vacation time. They're both big countries, so there's a lot to see and do domestically. It's quite normal for a European to have travelled abroad several times a year since childhood, but a very large proportion of American and Chinese tourists have little or no experience of international travel. A lack of experience and the desire to cram a lot into a short trip encourages large group tours, which are inherently more disruptive than independent travellers.
It's hard to be thoughtful and polite when you're being hustled from one Kodak moment to the next. It's hard to blend in with the locals when you're in a group of 30 foreign tourists. It's hard to pick up on the local etiquette when you've blasted through six countries in as many days; it's doubly hard when you're from an unusually extroverted culture.
Savvy Americans have started to leave the tour bus behind, learn the art of travel and buck the stereotypes. I'm sure that Chinese travellers will follow the same path.
Some people have to think rather than just regurgitating propaganda, this is a real problem.
I'm sorry this is simply not true and I'd argue this well meaning anti-racist-to-the-point-of-delusion attitude that has been drilled into the heads of Westerners is part of the problem of why China as a nation hasn't made more serious efforts to teach its citizenry the very basics of common courtesy.
I've been in airport immigration queues and watched numerous different Chinese people blatantly (there isn't a strong enough word to fully describe the magnitude) cut into every single line they could....if there was the slightest of gaps, a Chinese person would be jumping into it, completely oblivious (or not, I'm suspicious) to the rude stares of others who are politely queuing. And I won't even get into volume of speaking, driving habits, adherence to laws related to fraud, etc.
One would think their fellow countrymen who know better would say something (if I saw a Canadian pulling this stunt he'd get a severe public shaming from me), but once again most Westerners would probably disagree with this, as the very notion of groups having a social responsibility for "policing themselves" is also considered "racist", as is even noticing blatantly obvious patterns in objective reality.
EDIT: Reminded me of this video:
Why BUY books in CHINA when you can read them for FREE!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=950PYt9d1Po
I think this goes a long ways to explaining why they are the way they are, types of behavior that would be unthinkable anywhere else is absolutely normal in China.
Historically, because the oldest bookstore which called "新华书店“ in China is state-owned, they do not have the right to drive the customers away just because they can not buy the books. On the other hand, during that time(1940s), more than 85% of the population are illiterate, so the goverment encouraged people to read in the bookstore and deliberately pulled the price of books. Economically, because the bookstore in China is a collection of various other business projects, such as Tea bars, coffee shops, Stationery shops and so on(you can find these in the veido), so a large number of customer flows will generate huge business benefits. In fact, many bookstores in the UK also allow customers to do so. These are the reasons why this 'porblem' happend in China. I suggest you, please do a little investigation before making a rash judgment
"types of behavior that would be unthinkable anywhere else is absolutely normal in China."
I wonder what the store looks like at the end of the day, do you think all the books are back in their places? Or, maybe just 3 or 4 have to be reshelved? :)
I find it more interesting to try and understand the behavior than only criticize it.
Some American tourists seem to have the attitude that American culture is objectively correct and that the rest of the world is essentially a theme park with bad service. The "USA, USA, USA" attitude doesn't travel well. It's an attitude that quickly melts away after real immersion in a foreign culture, but unfortunately many Americans don't have that luxury.
It isn't a new problem - see this wonderful 1943 training film for American troops being stationed in Britain:
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2016/10/07/commentary/wo...
https://www.theatlantic.com/china/archive/2013/08/why-are-ch...
http://www.cnn.com/travel/article/chinese-tourism-impact/ind...
http://www.scmp.com/news/china/article/1671504/rude-awakenin...
It's not just hand-wavvy the same the same thing. Of course the title for who has the least bad manners isn't one to brag about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBCLXZmMQNs
Children peeing and pooping on the floor on airlines (while being supervised by their parents)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GT0kj1AWSfc
Absolutely no shame. In some cases, you literally have to alter your society once Chinese tourists start to come in significant numbers, they are simply incompatible with many modern norms.
I don't think that behavior is "unthinkable" outside China at all. Plenty of Americans read books in book stores. In fact, some bookstores even encourage that behavior by installing comfy chairs, couches, or coffee bars.
It is true. There definitely is a stereotype that we are loud, obnoxious, etc. Everything people have been saying about the chinese tourist, people have been saying about americans.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugly_American_(pejorative)
But the chinese seem to be taking it to another level.
While the Chinese tourists may be loud and assertive, Western tourists have have a colonial attitude and like to get into fights as well.
I've seen them yell at poor waiters because they couldn't understand English. You would think their follow countrymen would say something but instead they jeered along. Insulting them and making "ching-chong" noises (despite the fact that they were in SE Asia and their language is completely different than Chinese).
Oh, reminds me of this article:
Why BUY movies in the US when you can download them for FREE!
https://variety.com/2017/digital/news/piracy-survey-consumer...
I think this goes a long ways to explaining why they are the way they are, types of behavior that would be unthinkable anywhere else is absolutely normal...
http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/everyone-line-up-canadas...
I assume you're only pointing out that queuing-without-queuing is a thing, not defending queue-jumping or places where the lack of any ordered system means whoever is strongest pushes to the front.
I don't think this has anything to do with the lack of travel experience. It's just the way that they were brought up and perhaps in their village or town it's just like that.
Please, name the cultures that consider defecating in public (sidewalks, shopping malls, airplane aisles) to be normal behavior when there is a washroom less than 1 minute walk away.
From the little I can Google (http://www.indexmundi.com/facts/china/people-practicing-open...), it appears that open defecation was possibly more accepted in China, particularly in rural areas, 30 years ago. It looks like China has made a lot of progress regarding sanitation and reducing this practice, which is good. Still, I bet there's still some leftover bad habits, which may carry over to some of the tourist mishaps.
And before I'll consider the notion that "There's no such thing as human etiquette, only a specific culture's etiquette.", I think I'm going to have to see wealthy people from some other cultures with similar behavior. Until then, my worldview is going to be based on observable reality over optimistic but baseless theories.
The premise that the cultural revolution had literally no lasting effect on anyone is an extraordinary claim, and you know what they say about extraordinary claims...
I get the impression from forums, articles, etc. that while open defecation does happen in China, it is "culturally" only really acceptable in their country for little kids. That's a big difference to the rest of the world, where nappies / diapers are more prevalent (I can't think of another country with open-crotch pants, eg kaidangku, for children like China). But my impression is nowadays that in China parents who use kaidangku are generally thought of as "peasants" / "old fashioned" / etc.
And yes I agree that it's possible that the hangover from the cultural revolution may explain a little bit about the "lack of manners" aspect of the Chinese tourist stereotype.
If race wasn't a component of this discussion there's no way people would be willing to go through the mental gymnastics required to constantly find a new excuse for this being in no way whatsoever the fault of the "public pooping supervisor".
I suspect this same anti-racism-at-whatever-measure is what makes financial fraud so easy as well.
Culture changes. Once two generations of Chinese have lived in affluent urban settings, their manners will converge with those of other developed countries.
There are many reasons for that. A obvious one is quick economic growth makes many less educated normal people can afford previously luxury tourism. But there are more profound reasons. Unfortunately, researches and studies of personality statistics of vary large group of people(for example, behavior of an ethnic group) are very difficult and most importantly: they are politically incorrect, considered harmful and forbidden, as well as the conclusions will not be accepted by public. So most people on the earth don't know the real reasons behind that but only have fake explanations that modern human mind can accept.
BTW off the topic. with same understanding, I predicted early in 2003 that Bush's goal of Iraq war would fail FOR SURE by observation of similarity of statistical (i.e. population) mindsets between middle east people and Chinese people.
The good news is things are changing slowly towards the good direction. The habit and behavior of Chinese people, especially young generation and educated people are more and more closer to that of Japanese, Hongkonger, Taiwan people. But it will take long long time, maybe generations.
Do you mean politically incorrect in China? Otherwise, I'd just call this kind of study Anthropology (of some form).
Of course my comment is making sweeping and baseless assumptions. It is my attempt to sarcastically express the zeitgeist.
Even assuming you don't mean culture as a proxy for race or religion (which are obviously related but not the same as culture), times being what they are when you hear "culture" from a stranger you don't usually think "oh interesting, an anthropologist!". Instead it's usually time to buckle up for a broad generalization about a very large group of people the speaker is no more familiar with than anyone else.
Because that's objective reality. Cultures do have statistically common behaviors/traditions/norms, some "good", some "bad" - that is literally a fundamental part of the very definition of culture. Acknowledging this obvious fact in a reasonable conversation is no more wrong than saying it's still not ok to drink and drive despite the fact that most impaired drivers do not cause any harm.
Mischaracterizing the simple acknowledgement of patterns of behavior as a claim that all members of a group always act that way, and no improvement is possible because the culture is fundamentally flawed, is incredibly disingenuous. Anyone who makes this claim should be ashamed of themselves, as it is attitudes like this that contribute to perpetuating disunity between cultures who will always be distinct. Cultural uniqueness is usually a good thing (and should be preserved), but not always.
Saying that [a group of] people think all people, globally, are the same is really ridiculous. Maybe online it might seem that way but people in real life don’t.
I'm always curious whether these mistakes are intentional or not. I said "most". I was being partially hyperbolic (I honestly don't know if it's half or not, it depends on what conversation you observe really).
> they even do things like use them in debates about ways to improve our healthcare, for example
That's another commonality you will in public discussions: depending on the topic of conversation, cultures/genders are sometimes considered unique and sometimes not, by the same person. Their opinion changes depending on the topic of discussion. You see it online, you see it in the news, you see it in debates (online and real world).
If a politically correct person just came back from an overseas holiday, they will speak of the "richness" of the culture there, how they do some things in a different and often better way. (I agree with this perspective.)
The very same person, on the topic of immigration, will insist in complete seriousness, that there is no noteworthy cultural difference. Oh but also, we absolutely must have more immigration, because it increases diversity (despite the people not actually being different), which is good.
And I suppose it's necessary for me to explicitly point out: not all people do this, only some people.
Thank you for this, it's nice to see some people still have the ability to think beyond propaganda.
I always assumed it came down to exactly this. Give people money who have never had money before and there are going to be some social growing pains but eventually everything will normalize.
Certainly not so painful that I'd avoid visiting China though.
Younger Chinese travelling as couples or small groups are much more polite. As you said, within a generation or two, I think the reputation as travellers will improve.
This guy is basically saying because of the actions of some Chinese tourists, he's going to stereotype an entire culture of people and you're the one apologizing?
I've read this about Chinese tourists for years. But all the Mainlander tourists I've spotted in Taiwan and Hong Kong have been normally behaved, which has always been mildly disappointing. Until I finally visited some of the more touristy Thailand temples and saw the behavior you describe.
My theory is that the sort of Chinese tourist who fits this stereotype will almost exclusively follow a guided itinerary with a big tour group.
All of the Australians I have seen in SE Asia are sex tourists so I can't help but wonder if it's just the type Australian tourists that visit SE Asia and Australia would be different, but its just not a risk i'm willing to take.
The great things you can see are random new architecture (a highly successful architect friend of mine recently described China as a "playground for architects"), old stuff (though increasingly fake / rebuilt - if you are a real history buff you need to do some research to find the less visited sites), interesting and highly regionally varied food, and almost total street-level safety.
Things that can be not so fun: transportation crushes, higher prices (it is no longer cheap to travel here), communications and cultural issues, general lack of tourism infrastructure or infrastructure limited to handful of sites with a mass tourism focus.
Personally I prefer the smaller towns, natural areas, and obscure cultural attractions like locally preserved architecture, performance traditions and wacky foods.
Overall it's a very interesting country and worth a look, though if you have a very picky diet (eg. vegan), a weak stomach or constitution, or tire easily it may not be the destination of choice.
Anyone from HN passing through Shenzhen is welcome to hit me up for a beer!
I'm a fellow founder based in SZ, it would be great to get in contact. Your Myanmar-focused financial services startup sounds interesting. I always try to meet anyone doing something I find interesting :)
Could you drop me an email at gabriel@moju.io? Any other HN readers based in SZ, also feel free to reach out :)
Shenzhen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKLrmi5eOn8
Shanghai: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cC-j4_NtvE
Guangzhou: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNlN1_ANaJs
Chongqing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07dWi-MJReM
Shenyang: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGBSpoTXZmw
Suzhou: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aXLMS-miKU
Dalian: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeEJNNMcR1s
Zhengzhou: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiOlUYfM310
One claim that stuck out to me:
> [As several hundred million people moved from the countryside into urban areas] ... Wages and living standards have risen to create the biggest rapid boost in prosperity the world has seen, ever.
Can anyone comment on the accuracy of this? What other times in human history would be in the running for this "title"?
But the population of Europe at the time or even America is only a fraction of China's, and the speed of China's growth has been even more spectacular. It took Britain ~50 years to double GDP between 1840 and 1890: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Biaroch_European_GDP_per_...
While China tripled their GDP/capita (both US$ and PPP) in a bit over 10: https://www.lowyinstitute.org/sites/default/files/interprete...
The only comparable time is when US industrialized and we went from agrarian to urban/industrial in a matter of few decades and became the largest economy in the world by the late 1800s.
But what china has done is US on steroids. In the past 40 years, china has created 100 cities with more than 1 million people. To put that into perspective, we have 10 cities with 1 million or more people in the US. They went mostly rural to half urban in 40 years. In the next 10 years, china is expected to create another 100 cities with more than 1 million people. Think about that. Here is a short world economic forum video about china's urbanization.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0V3gxyU55Q
As for the wealth, look at the GDP growth the past few decades.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_GDP_of_China
They went from poverty and famine in the 50s/60s to the largest GDP in the world in PPP terms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)
And the 2nd largest economy in nominal terms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...
I spent the July 4th holiday week there (and yes, it is relatively safe).
Nanning is also surprisingly upscale, after going to the rural areas of Guilin, I didn't expect Nanning to be so well developed.
Shanghai is always my first love. Truly "mega", good infra, good food, etc.
Nanning is pretty meh, but then so are most of the cities on this list :). Liuzhou is much more interesting, as it is stuck between Guilin and nanning both geographically and in feeling (big city with embedded karst mountains and not many tourists).
To me, when you get to Kashgar you start to feel more like you're Central Asia.
I'd like to visit Kashgar someday. Northern xinjiang was really nice to tour around also, except they didn't let me out of the van when we reached the khazakistan border (no foreigners allowed).
Shenyang is great, and it is kind of criminal not to mention that Shenyang is the old capital of Qing empire. You should visit the imperial palace. It is distinctively different from Forbidden City of Beijing.
If Shenyang is great, how come its population is dropping so fast?
I'm curious if Liaoning (outside Shenyang) is the same way. (I've had a long-running fascination with HeiLongJiang for reasons I don't understand myself, though I've never been there)
If you are interested in the North-East part of China, there is a western travellers made documentary coming soon, it is called Conquering Northern China made by a British South African and an American.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsYMZK89XHg https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/205422728/conquering-no...
In case if you don't know what Brilliance Auto is doing in Shengyang, feel free to watch the video below.
I don't have any problem buying a Mercedes-Benz made in Beijing or a Volkswagen made in Shanghai with their local partners (BAIC and SAIC).
I'd love to go, and have used google translate extensively, but am concerned about not being able to read signs. I agree that travel should be challenging, but not to the degree that it kills the experience.
I think this depends more on the traveler than on the city/nation. I don't think there is anywhere that language necessarily pigeonholes you to tourist areas - it's simply how comfortable or uncomfortable it makes you.
That being said, I think you would have very good luck in Hong Kong, for obvious reasons. Beyond english accessibility, I find Hong Kong to be the most fascinating and interesting city in the world. I love to be there and miss it when I am not.
If you can find some kind of personal connection there - a meetup or hackerspace or ... anything ... it is definitely helpful and will get you off the beaten path much more quickly.
HKGers should check out DimSumLabs ( https://www.meetup.com/dimsumlabs/ ) as a really nice bunch (at least when I was there).
GPS is in everything. So hailing a taxi via an app is a not huge issue largely. And wherever you go you can use Baidu maps to tell you where you are vs. where you need to be.
Subways are fine for an English speaker, as long as you know where you're going and check the interchange. Rush hours may be a little crowded.
As long as you've done your research where you want to go, you should be OK. Wouldn't do it with family until getting used to doing so for a few days. eChinaCities should be avoided as their despite their Google et al search listings being very high, are mainly paid content. Find a website local for the city, e.g. is in Beijing then thebeijinger.com should be fine.
Do not follow someone with good English pretending to take you somewhere like a tea shop, restaurant or art gallery, or really anywhere. Don't say the nation you're from, just be assertive in refusal.
Have been in China for a few years in a few cities, mainly north.
Need to make it to Shenzhen, and Chengdu sometime!
Qufu is highly recommended. It is the holy city with continuity streteching back at least a thousand years, visited by many emperors from different dynasties.
A similar site is Ise Grand Shrine in Japan.
Great weather, cosmopolitan population, good food and close to HK. Plus feels more chill than other cities.
1. Kunming (Yunnan)
2. Chongqing
3. Qingdao
4. Zhengzhou
5. Xian
6. Nanjing
7. Dalian
8. Shenyang
9. Chengdu (Sichuan)
10. Qufu
11. Beijing
12. Shanghai
London, New York and Paris (not China IIRC)
Does anyone know google maps (or whatever) well enough to make a URL with markers for all these?
Best cuisine? Frankly I liked the old Hui stronghold of Ningxia the best. Plain old noodle soup, but to perfection every time. And very good who-knows-what-that-might-be-but-who-cares-its-delicious satay all around. Chengdu would be a close second though.
While I respect the culinary history of China, IMO SE Asia and India both blow all regions of China out of the water. (Though Taiwan, if you think of it as part of China, being my first ever overseas habitat, holds a bit of a soft spot in my cuisinitude).
I'm not really into Chinese cities in general, they seem to blend together in typical ways. They are just spring boards to the real adventures.
Here ya go: https://goo.gl/t6pdMt
But I agree Zhengzhou is not one of them.